I have just completed my 8th (or is it the 9th?) Bachmann Old West gondola (Item # 43-1025-01) and am again wondering why the major suppliers don't offer rolling stock of this era. Installing coupler/coupler boxes, new trucks, brake wheel, paint, decals, and weathering proves you can make a purse out of a sow's ear (albeit a cheap one). I find myself "haunting" model railroad shows and eBay to obtain rolling stock that should be readily available...on par with the quality of steam/diesel kits. Bachmann already has given us their excellent American 4-4-0s (I have two...and Mr. Bachmann how about offering some of the earlier woodburning engines with sound and DCC?).
Yes, there are craftsman kits on the market that portray this time period (LaBelle, BTS among others); but these are craftsman kits that require skill and considerable time. All the structures, on my layout, are of the wooden - craftsman - variety so I am well acquainted with this skill level. Why should I look in Model Railroader and see a fair number of truss-rod cars for HOn3 and virtually none for HO? I was informed that HOn3 cars cannot be added to my fleet by virtue of adding HO trucks because the entire car is scaled differently...rats!
Mr. Bachmann: You already have the dies and molds for these cars...why not upgrade them and offer them again? Roundhouse/MDC/Horizon Hobbies: why did you discontinue making kits for this time period? Accurail, Bowser, Walthers: don't we have enough 40' box cars and reefers?
Thanks for letting me "let off steam"...as you can tell this is one of my pet peeves. Now I guess I will have to assemble that BTS flatcar I've been moving to the bottom of the pile.
Most folks want to model either what they see out there in the real world (i.e., modern stuff) or they model what they remember from when they were about 10 years old. The latter reason is why those of us approaching codger-dom model the steam-diesel transition era. Pre-1900 modeling is a small niche, and probably not one that is going to draw a lot of major manufaturing interest. There have been some selection of models over the years - Mantua had cars to go with the "General", and Bachmann makes the Golden Spike locos. IIRC, MDC/Roundhouse also did some early cars as well. Granted, it would be great if Bachmann took the Spectrum mech from the IF On30 4-4-0 and did a "William Mason" or such, but don't hold your breath.
EBTnut,
You are probably correct...there simply isn't enough interest (read: customers) to make production of late 19th century trains worthwhile. Perhaps I should be thankful that Bachmann was willing to introduce a well-made and reliable 4-4-0. I can live with the fact that the Bachmann Spectrum American locomotive was actually produced after the turn of the century. I guess I just find the 1880s to be an exciting time of railroading in the U.S. Small, light and beautiful engines pulling short mixed trains (frequently) through the bucolic countryside of the times...iron rails and iron men. Thanks for replying...now I'll go tear the trucks off that Bachmann gondola.
Ray
Athearn/Roundhouse offers 34' Overtons and 50' Overlands, both with clerestory roofs, that look great behind a vintage locomotive. The distributor is Horizon Hobbies, you might check their site for current availability.
I have 2 sets of each, the quality is very good, although lacking a bit in detail.
Model Power/Mantua has a line of vintage cars, but delivery is sporadic. I had some of their cars on back order for over a year and finally cancelled the order.
Dear CNE,
I'll pass along your request.
Happy Holidays!
the Bach-man
Bach-man,
Thanks for taking the time to pass on my suggestion. It seems there is a market niche that might prove profitable. I love those Spectrum 4-4-0s!! How about a Mogul to match? [Are we ever satisfied?]
Regards,
Ray
Quote from: Yampa Bob on December 09, 2008, 09:30:09 PM
Athearn/Roundhouse offers 34' Overtons and 50' Overlands, both with clerestory roofs, that look great behind a vintage locomotive. The distributor is Horizon Hobbies, you might check their site for current availability.
I have 2 sets of each, the quality is very good, although lacking a bit in detail.
Model Power/Mantua has a line of vintage cars, but delivery is sporadic. I had some of their cars on back order for over a year and finally cancelled the order.
Thanks for the suggestion Yampa Bob. I have a Roundhouse/MDC set of 34' Overton cars that I have painted and lettered for the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut RR. Years ago you used to be able to purchase an interior kit for these cars...but no longer. I haven't had adequate chance to examine the Mantua cars although they look much more "toy-like" than the Roundhouse units. AHM and IHC used to produce some fairly good old time cars...alas they are also in the past.
An earlier post (from the Bach-man) indicated that he would "pass it on" to the powers that be. Given the scarcity of products, in this era, Bachmann might have a good product line on their hands (especially if they produce cars as good as their American 4-4-0s). Again thanks and I'll take a closer look at your Mantua suggestion.
Runner,
On a trip last year, I found 30+ original Athearn "Blue Box" and MDC Roundhouse vintage coach and freight car kits in shops along the way. Some had the original price ($1.95 to $2.50) still on the box, others were remarked at $6.95.
They were "gathering dust" on shelves, and I was glad to get them, dust and all.
Check around for small out of the way hobby shops. The way to find them is to pick and search for a city "Chamber of Commerce" for addresses and phone numbers.
"Thar's gold in them thar shops" 8)
Good luck
I too am after 1880s rolling stock and steamers, my scale of choice is N.
I don't know about customer base... everytime I ask about a product I get told they are out of stock by the manufacturer.. unless they only make a couple, they seem to sell.
Right now, only Athearn and Bachmann make the RTR rolling stock, and Bachmann does not sell theirs separate, only in train sets.
N Scale Supply makes flat, box and stock cars in kits that look great.
Motive power is where we are let down. The Bachmann 4-4-0 line is nice to look at, but reliability is an issue. I have 4 here and 3 sit idle becuase they don't run...
Only the little Atlas 2-6-0 Mogul runs like a dream. It is on my list to add an NCE decoder and make it DCC.
I would love to see Bachmann upgrade their 4-4-0s to Spectrum quality and make them DCC ready/equipped.
Removed. Too much info about other company products.
Rich
"Why should I look in Model Railroader and see a fair number of truss-rod cars for HOn3 and virtually none for HO?"
Most narrow gaugers don't model the 1800's they model the 1930-1940 period specifically in Colorado. The HOn3 cars represent post 1903 generally. There is very little 1880's HOn3 equipment available.
There is a large narrow gauge market in HOn3.
Harold
I was surprised to see this older thread still active. RichG, that photographer's car looks great (whether or not one actually existed); but I caution you about the complexity of such a kit. I have built older Varney kits that included castings, carvings and paper overlays. These kits are definitely not for someone who isn't well-grounded in advanced craftsman techniques...do not confuse these kits with laser-cut versions...these are much, much more difficult.
Will, good luck finding 1880s kits in N-scale. Much of what we have on the market (I am referring to 19th century HO kits) was produced in the 1970s and 80s. N-scale was in its infancy then - so the pickings are pretty slim...times are changing though.
Yampa Bob: as always you are a fount of knowledge and are helpful...you are one of the contributors who make this forum as good as it is. I have 15 or 20 MDC/Roundhouse kits that I overspray and redecorate with dry transfer sets from Clover House. The major problem is the MDC kits are actually models of cars that were produced after the turn of the century (and prior to WWI)...simply put they are too large. I recently bought (rescued?) a Mantua horse car. After some painting, re-wheeling and re-coupling it turned into a nice little car. According to my HO scale ruler it measures out at 27' which is correct for the 1880s. The difference in size between the Roundhouse cars (36') and the Mantua (27') really shows up when they are mixed.
Harold: We "batted" this topic around some on the Model Railroader forum recently. The HOn3 market was small and constituted a "fringe element" of the hobby until kits and RTR began to appear on the scene. Furthermore, Bachmann almost singlehandedly produced interest in On3 because they began producing excellent locomotives and cars (are you still listening Mr. Bach-Man?). I honestly think the notion "...if you build it - they will come" applies to 19th century model railroading as well. It is hard to build up interest (read that as "market") if there is little, to no, products offered within the gendre.
So what is the answer? We will do what legions of past modelers have done and "make due". I will continue to modify/redecorate rolling stock that is close to my modeling era. I will continue to build a few BTS kits. I will continue to check out the Bittercreek Models website to see what their rolling stock offerings will be. And, last - but not least, I will continue to model the 1880s. Having said that, I need to hitch Big John to the buggy and head into town.
Keep the faith,
Ray
Removed
Rich
Hey Rich. Well,,,when you're wrong, you're wrong. I did miss the link and am sorry about that (really neat car isn't it?). You are right; the instructions for the photography car kit do look fairly easy. Hmmm....'just might try one if it is on the market. Wow...BC Models had over fifty different types of rolling stock??? You really know how to hurt a guy don't you Rich. Let's hope Bittercreek makes even a small portion of BC's offerings.
My wife and I will be traveling throughout the Southwest this summer. I think I will follow Yampa Bob's suggestion of "haunting" any hobby shops encountered along the way. BTW that old Varney kit, I built, was bought at a train show we vendored for $3 (vendor to vendor cost). It still amazes me the difficulty early model railroaders had to endure to enjoy their hobby.
I think I'll fire up #8 (Bachmann American 4-4-0) and tack on that Varney...for old times' sake.
Take care,
Ray
Dear Ray,
Thanks for the kind comments, I was a bit depressed this morning but you made my day.
I am glad to see older threads such as this one revisited. I sometimes bump some of my threads back to page one just for a fresh exposure. With all the new members, threads drift to the archives too fast.
I have so many vintage kits I don't know where to start. I found 8 blue box stock cars at another small shop, don't know why I bought them as I don't run stock cars anyway. Three old Roundhouse Overton kits, Wells Fargo and Baggage, but they are all Santa Fe. Now, these weren't cheap, the dealer had them marked up to $10 each. I commented about the old price being marked through and he said "Hey these are collector cars". Yeah right.
I bought 4 Mantua 1890 style because I liked the blue B&O color and pin striping. I scratched the lettering off 2 of them and did my "Talgo Upgrade" thing, the others still in the box. I also bought 3 Mantua 1860 for the brown color and flat top roof, but they are lettered Pennsylvania, also still unmodified.
Now that I have several Roundhouse sets of Overtons and Overlands, kinda lost interest in the Mantua and Athearn kits. I'm considering some serious culling out of my cars this summer, you may get some bargains if you're interested. Anyway, my eyes won't take much building anymore.
I've been following the thread, but haven't posted.
My passion has always been HO 1800's model railroading but my passion has waned.
I'm pleased to see the number of others who like the old stuff.
I'm still undecided whether to try another old time layout when I take down the Christmas one. I never really finished the last one when I converted to the multi-scale Christmas theme.
The trouble is, I can't bring myself to trash the Christmas layout after all the work. >:(
Good morning Bob...'glad I could make your day...I meant every word of my statement (would a retired psychologist lie?). I only have two questions: 1) do you have a watch dog and, 2) is your house equipped with an alarm? Yes, let me know what you are going to do with those cars. I, also, frequently buy rolling stock that is decorated for a foreign road. Usually (on a wood-sided car) a lttle light sanding and I can overpaint/decorate. For some reason, the kit manufacturers have missed decorating some of their offerings for the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut RR or the (later) Central New England RR...probably just an oversight. I guess it will be up to Bachmann to "fill in the void".
I wish you lived closer to Alabama as being a "lone wolf" gets kind of lonely from time to time. I am running out of people to whom I can tell lies (the cats know my tales and ignore them). I am not a club person; but it sure would be fun to co-operate with another fanatic once in a while. With our proposed [Fall 2009] move to bring my layout from the garage into the house; I will be in 7th heaven! As it stands, I can only run trains for a very short percentage of the year (mainly Spring and Fall as the summers get too hot and the winters too cold...OK you northern readers...I can hear you laughing). I guess this gives me lots of time to build and armchair plan...and occasionally do some housework.
Keep 'em rolling rolling and my email is on the profile page,
Ray
Welcome aboard Terry...'wonderful to meet you and don't be a stranger! Actually it doesn't matter what era you model because there is something to learn and enjoy in all of them. My Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut layout is loosely modeled on a real short-line that ran from the late 1870s through 1906 when it was absorbed into the Central New England RR (hence my screen name...a "runner" was the 19th century name for a locomotive engineer). Given my space/location constraints, I have had to play with history more than a little (I should have put "loosely" in italics, in the preceding sentence, as I take frequent liberties with the real N.D.& C.
I understand your reticence in trashing the Christmas layout. All is not lost as you must have learned something in the building process - if it was only NOT to do the same thing again. A little secret: in the 40+ years I have been involved in model railroading, I have only completed ONE layout (if a layout is ever considered "completed"). While a little expensive, beginning anew gives us the chance to wipe the slate clean and profit from our past mistakes.
In summary, I say go for it! Open up the checkbook and buy a Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 (assuming you still harbor an interest in 19th century railroading). If you don't have DCC - purchase a beginning set up like Bachmann's or MRC (which I use)...you can always upgrade later. There are still lots of MDC/Roundhouse kits out there begging to be built. Keep your first layout simple; but with the ability to expand. And most important of all: keep asking and contributing to the forums. All of us that post are here to help, support, and want you to ask questions. None of us has all the knowledge available - but together we just about have it all covered. I recommend this forum and the Model Railroader forum (you do subscribe to MR don't you?). Honestly, I have shared with the nicest folks on these forums.
OK buddy...start planning that layout!! Feel free to contact me off-line.
Ray
Ray - Thanks for the welcome. I've been around for a little while.
I've got more old time Bachmann rolling stock and locos than I know what to do with, along with the other brands like Mantua and Roundhouse.
I'm more RTR and watch them run as opposed to building them and lots of switching.
I've got a half dozen kit bash/scratch build projects that I started before my heart attack (with temporary amnesia) that are still sitting on a desk. I can't remember what I was doing with them.
My problem it that I have too many interests and can't stay interested in any one thing for a long time. Besides the RR, I've got a T-Bucket that is apart and I work on off and on and I own two music publishing companies. I spend a lot of time in front of the tube, watching Westerns and news mostly. I'm also getting disability as a Viet-vet and was involved in Vet activities for quite a while.
If I was a kid, they would probably say I have ADD.
Terry...it sounds like you are a man of many talents. The old Bachmann and Mantua cars (I will assume they are 19th century models) can be made into fairly good looking rolling stock. The Mantua cars can have magnetic couplers installed - after you cut off the truck mounted units. These cars just need a little paint (especially on those ugly door tracks) and some weathering. I also only run metal wheels; so I replace the plastic wheel sets with Kadee ribbed-back wheel sets for smoother running (ribbed-back wheels are the correct ones for 19th century models). Bachmann gondolas can be repainted/decorated for your road and the "wood" sideboards can be distressed with a file to show wear. Again, some weathering makes all the difference. You will also have to cut off the truck-mounted couplers and replace the plastic wheels. BTW: what is the name of your [proposed] railroad? What will be its purpose? Think about it.
Your lack of commitment to any one interest may be age related - or as a result of your Vietnam experience...I am too far away and haven't spoken long enough with you to tell. It is possible that you may have a touch, or a residual level, of ADD. I have read a couple of Psych Journal articles that show some research into the areana of adult ADD. Don't worry about it too much as I have been involved in numerous interests and look at me now...wait a minute that didn't come out right.
Perhaps you could prioritize your interests. For example spend a portion of the year working on your T-bucket. When you attentions wanes, do something with your model railroad. Don't spend so much time on any one project that you begin to marginalize your efforts...diversify. Ah ha!! Your are a musician? OK, how interesting would music be if you only listened to/learned/played five or six songs? I would imagine your instrument would soon be gathering dust. Model railroading, building a T-bucket rod, or anything similar are HOBBIES...you do them when you want. These interests are your stress relievers...not your vocation. For what it is worth, you seem to be a very interesting person...definitely not boring! Go with the flow - but remember even the flow has to stay within the banks.
The longest journey begins with the first step. OK, one step at a time: walk around your living area (house?, apartment? cave?) and see where - and how large a layout you can have that makes sense. Be careful...the larger the layout - the more expensive the project and the greater the commitment - KISS principle. Don't tell us you don't have any space for a train layout...hanging or folding in the garage?..on wheels under the bed?...a small shelf layout...there are lots of places to play. The English are extremely resourceful, with layout locations/space, partly due to the small size of their homes. If they can do it so can you.
It would really help if you could get a buddy involved in benchwork construction (besides you need someone to lie to). This is usually the step that is easier with another set of hands. Maybe you know someone who doesn't like trains (sicko); but is interested - and somewhat skilled with woodworking? You were involved in Vet activities? You must know someone who would give you a hand...if only to get out of the house (theirs not necessarily yours)...pizza usually attracts willing hands.
Terry, you can do this. How about starting off with a small shelf layout? There are some websites that have plans for such a project. Keep it simple: use EZ-track and have a couple of spurs for switching (watching trains chase their tails gets very boring - very fast). Kalmbach Publishing and Atlas Tool Company (makers of Atlas rr products) have produced numerous track plan books. Go to the next model railroad show and get enthused. Part of my current layout is the Timesaver Route originated by John Allen...basically a switching (or shunting) problem. Need more information? Google "Shunting Puzzles" as there is an English website that explains the concept and gives some layout plans. YouTube.com has a series of video "lessons" on laying and weathering flex track that are interesting and informative.
Please come back to the forum, on a regular basis, if only to let us know how you are doing. Whether you realize it or not you have taken the first step in the process by posting. The hobby needs you as much as you need the hobby.
I'm going to hold you to it...
Ray
Ray,
I've been a man of many jobs, too. This is from my Myspace page -
Retired veteran 18 years Marine Corps. Most of it inactive reserves. 1968-1974 1983-1995 Vietnam vet. Own Far Fetched Music and Pond Tunes - Black Oak Arkansas music from the 70's. Worked at the UN for almost 4 years. I've been an - ice cream jeep driver (ding dong) - carnival ride assembler and operator - catering company delivery - mail boy - Marine rifleman - machinegunner - radioman - fire team leader - squad leader - grenadier - 3.5 rocker launcher gunner - point man - store detective - UN security - amateur drag racer - shade tree mechanic - lumberjack - off bear - houseman - fiberglass worker on kiddy rides - night housekeeper - dish washer - boat mechanic - boat dock builder - mushroom picker - material handler - driving instructor - lawn care foreman - wood stripping company owner - real estate salesman - Marine Reservist - veteran's employment counselor - 1st baseman for a softball team for 8 years - college student - p.r. person - file clerk - newspaper reporter - newsletter editor - Vet's org. President - copyright owner - Still trying to decide what I want to be when I grow up.
Most of the time I'd get bored an quit.
I'm sure Vietnam has something to do with my problem.
During my time in The Corps, I've - been shot at, knocked unconscious by a grenade, had a rocket round land in front of me and not go off, almost drowned crossing a river with a fully loaded pack, been robbed by South Vietnamese troops, had two kinds of malaria (vivax and falciparum) at the same time, pneumonia, VD, heat stroke, heat exhaustion, immersion feet, PTSD, and lost some best friends.
And that's just what I remember off the top of my head.
I did have a "layout in progress" (LIP) before I abandoned it and went for the multi-scale Christmas themed ovals.
The LIP before I abandoned it and started over -
(http://www.sarget.com/751522-R1-18.jpg)
(http://www.sarget.com/mlo-3-27-03-1.jpg)
The current layout -
(http://www.sarget.com/trains/xmlayout-06/xm-06-a40c.JPG)
I was right...you do have all kinds of experience. Judging from the image with the Atlas turntable, it appears you do possess the skills to produce a really nice layout. If you have the space, I would seriously consider building a [shelf?] layout that is grounded in the 1880s or 90s. It was a time of wooden cars and iron men ('got this from a poster on the MR forum...it is his signature). The major problem would be availability of rolling stock. Updating to the 1940s (or more) really opens up the options BUT will also increase the complexity (engine types, types of rolling stock, industries, vehicles, and signaling to name a few issues).
Regarding changing the layout in progress: I am working on plans to change some of the parts of the Newburgh, Dutchess & Connecticut. I built a near-copy of the roundhouse the road used in the late 1800's, am scratch-building a model of one of the line's stations from that period; but something doesn't work. For one thing the roundhouse takes up too much layout real estate...an enginehouse would work better. Well...without going into details - I will probably tear up a portion of the layout when I move it in from the garage to the ex-guest room. See? The work is never done.
If you still harbor an interest in late 19th century railroading I would suggest you start "haunting" any train shows in your area. Usually the older Bachmann, Mantua, AHM, Poucher cars are readily available and go for good prices. Ebay's selection is pretty slim...and the prices can be outrageous. Hmmm, I see you were involved in being a lumberjack, wood stripping company owner and mushroom picker? How about a logging layout (with a few mushrooms for good measure)?
Keep thinking,
Ray
PS: I haven't tried to post images on this forum but check out some of my posts on the MR forums. I have the same screen name...'can't handle too many concepts at the same time.
I'm actually thinking about an L shaped logging layout in the corner.
I was in the process of scratch building the roundhouse when I took it down.
Removed. Info about other company products
Rich
Rich, I checked out that website you suggested and all I can say is: thank you, thank you, thank you!! There is a ton of information and resources...all in one spot. I have never built a resin kit; but there is no time like the present to try.
Ray
Hi Ray
Glad to help. I belong to a couple Yahoo old time groups just for the specific era information. This not to draw you away from the Bachmann forums which in themselves are specific. The groups are not as active as the Bachmann groups but still valuable if you like the "old time" era.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ER_Kits/
Look at the Files and Photos sections for more information.
Yahoo also has a Civiil War trains group which I left some time ago as it did not benefit me much. A Winans Camel 0-8-0 I bashed was the only item I had from 1850s. The rest of my stuff is about 1900.
Rich
If I can get a word in edgewise.... :D...I love this thread. LOL
:P :D 8)
Bob: there is always room for your comments...they have been an invaluable resource to this modeler. Rich: I have seen your posts removed because you mentioned another manufacturer's products...is this against the rules? If so, I do understand as the cost of maintaining this excellent website/forum falls on Bachmann Trains. I guess this is the first time I have run into a removal for that purpose. C'est la vie.
Back on topic...has anyone seen those new Bachmann logging cars? The flat car with the stationary steam engine (I think it is called a "skidder") really interests me and would fit in nicely on my layout. Logging, and its related industries, were "major players" in upstate New York communities during the 19th century. Hmm, I might have to come up with a small sawmill.
Mentioning logging reminded me that cider mills were frequently found in communities throughout the Hudson Valley. I remember, as a kid, taking a tour through a local cider mill (sadly, it was torn down for a strip mall). It should be pointed out that the two major industries of the time were milk processing/shipping, and the transport of coal (in the 1860s through the 1880s much of this material was hand-shoveled onto and off gondolas...they produced MEN in those days). The old Bachmann gondolas make a good stand-in for these "coal" cars. I like to lightly sand off the road names (usually either U.P.R.R. or C.P.R.R.) then take a rather coarse file to "distress" the wooden side boards. When everything looks pleasantly "used", I then repaint the entire car...keep in mind most 19th century rolling stock was garbed in rather drab colors. After painting I then add my N.D.& C. lettering with either decals or dry transfer lettering. With a simple (relatively) change in couplers and wheel sets your have a rather nice model. While a gondola didn't carry much - it didn't take too many of them to tax the tractive power of an American 4-4-0...one of the reasons that the Consolidation came on the scene so fast.
Keep smiling,
Ray