Bachmann Message Board

Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: treno on December 12, 2008, 08:27:15 PM



Title: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 12, 2008, 08:27:15 PM
I am a total rookie.  I have set up my HO layout and have made an inside  loop that shorts out.  I was told to pick up some auto reversing track to cure the problem.  This has done nothing.  How do you cure this??? Signed, Treno


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Paul M. on December 12, 2008, 09:23:16 PM
Is it a reverse loop (loop that causes the train to switch direction)? If so, you'll have to do some complex wiring to change that.

Can you show us the track plan of your layout?


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: SteamGene on December 12, 2008, 09:33:42 PM
Is this DC or DCC?  In any event you need to isolate the reverse loop if such be the case.
Gene


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 12, 2008, 09:41:01 PM
It's DCC.


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Paul M. on December 12, 2008, 10:10:26 PM
Any word on the reverse loop?


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: taz-of-boyds on December 13, 2008, 12:02:55 AM
Treno,

Not having seen a diagram of your track makes it hard to work with directly.  But if you spend some time here:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c4

You should find this material very useful.  Allan Gartner has a tremendous amount of material well documented for DCC.  Please let us know how it turns out!

Charles


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: grumpy on December 13, 2008, 01:22:52 AM
Treno
If you are using a reverse loop purchase a Digitrax AR1  . It doesn't matter if it is DC or DCC it will work in both cases . From EXperience.
Don


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: pdlethbridge on December 13, 2008, 10:35:08 AM
According to digitrax, it's DCC only. Here's why according to them.
It is a common misconception that the AR1 will work with an analog controlled ("DC") locomotive; it will not. The AR1 is meant to be used only in a DCC environment. This is because the AR1 coordinates the electrical phase of the reversing segment with that of the mainline segment. Because DCC is a square wave AC power, track polarity is not an issue as it is with DC powered railroads.
Well. Who's right?


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: grumpy on December 14, 2008, 01:35:24 AM
There was no direction in the package when I purchased it and so I tried it and it seemed to work . I now have it installed on my DCC section and it is great .
Don


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: pdlethbridge on December 14, 2008, 07:14:10 AM
Their site was not very specific about it until I found the above.


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: grumpy on December 15, 2008, 01:46:39 AM
I was running a DCC loco on the DC circuit. That may make a difference ?
Don


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Joe Satnik on December 15, 2008, 12:28:05 PM
Dear All,

An educated guess if you'll bear with me....

Yes, a DCC reversing module may work with DC but only under these four (4) specific conditions:

1.) The main line is the "block" or "power district" that is "reversed" or "flopped" by the output of the reverse module.  The DC power pack directly feeds the reverse loop track and the input of the reverse module. 

2.) A DC train approaching the reverse loop turnout must take only one direction: the direction that causes the rails to match the loop's (unchanging) polarity, that of the power pack. 

(I will leave it as a mental exercise to figure out what would happen if the wrong turnout direction were taken.)

Taking the correct turnout direction, the train crosses over the first pair of insulating rail joiners (without event) and proceeds around the loop.

When the front wheels cross over the second pair of insulating rail joiners, they short to the mismatched polarity of the main line power district, causing the reverse module to "flop" and switch the mainline to the other polarity.

3.) The speed of the train (voltage of the power pack) must be high enough to allow the reverse module electronics to operate properly.

4.) The short curcuit "impulse" (=extremely small time) current of the power pack (probably related to the speed of the train) must be high enough to be detected as a short by the reverse module, allowing its output to flop to the other polarity.

You may wake up now. 

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik       


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Atlantic Central on December 16, 2008, 01:48:04 PM
Good explaination Joe, and all those "musts" are good reasons NOT to use an auto reverser with DC.

There are lots of better ways to handle reverse loops on DC powered layouts - wiring books for model trains are full of the various choices.

Sheldon


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 17, 2008, 08:20:11 PM
Sorry for the delay in responding. Out of town.  I have pretty much have a loop back on to itself.  I was told to pick up Backmann Auto Reversing Track, to no avail. Should I get a insulated gap track instead or will this even help? Treno


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: pdlethbridge on December 17, 2008, 10:00:20 PM
If you are running DCC an auto reverser will help. If your running regular DC or analog, you need a DPDT switch to reverse the current to the section before the reverse loop which may be the rest of the layout, depending on the track arrangement. Not a problem with the right equipment


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Joe Satnik on December 18, 2008, 01:29:16 AM
What is the name (make, model and item #) of your set?  What is the name on the controller?  Did the controller come with the set?

The most important parts of the reverse loop are the 4 insulated rail joiners between the loop and the 2 routes of the turnout. 

"The Complete Atlas Wiring Book" (book #12 - available at hobby shops) goes through the wiring of a reverse loop.  It's a good book, though you don't always need the fancy and expensive Atlas electrical switches that are shown.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 21, 2008, 06:55:37 PM
I have the Bachmann Digital Commander set with the EZ Command Control Center.  I'll try to upload a copy of the layout tomorrow.  Would the insulated gap track work instead of the auto-reversing track???


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Joe Satnik on December 22, 2008, 01:03:25 AM
Dear Treno,

The auto reversing track will not help you in this case.

The insulated gap track will work if both rails are gapped.   

You will need another gap track piece for a total of 4 gaps per loop.  The gaps should be as close to the turnout as possible.

Hope this helps.

Joe Satnik


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 22, 2008, 04:28:33 PM
Will I need a separate Command unit to power the loop??


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: BIG BEAR on December 23, 2008, 02:18:49 PM

   Treno,
   Just for clarification, the auto reversing track is only extra curves & lengths for the trolley sets.
   The auto reverser is for reversing the flow of electicity at that specific point each & every time the motive power passes it.
   I hope this helps & I hope this explains to alot of others who don't use trolleys or reversers just don't know the specific applications.
   Don't forget, "the only stupid question, is the one that isn't asked" as several people can learn from another's quetions.

           Barry



Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 23, 2008, 05:24:38 PM
To recap, all I need is a couple of insulated gapped pieces of track near the turn-outs and no additional transformer power unit?


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Joe Satnik on December 23, 2008, 10:01:19 PM
Treno,

Did you get my e-mail reply?

Joe


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 26, 2008, 02:46:38 PM
Sorry Joe, I did not.  I'm at palmisanom@sbcglobal.net


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Joe Satnik on December 27, 2008, 12:17:30 PM
I replied to your e-mail, the same address shown above.

Check your spam filter? 

Joe


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Joe Satnik on December 27, 2008, 10:39:51 PM
Mike,

I just re-sent your e-mail.  Hopefully it will get through.  Let me know.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik 


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: treno on December 29, 2008, 03:49:40 PM
Did not get it.  Adjusted my spam filter.  Try again.


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Joe Satnik on December 29, 2008, 05:30:49 PM
Just sent it again. 

If this fails I will just post it to the board here. 

Joe


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: Cassshay10 on January 03, 2009, 07:15:33 PM
Mabye you should check and see if its in a bind somewhere. I have a 7x4 and had the same problem. One side was 54 in of straight trackage and the other was 57. Afterwards, I felt like an idiot.


Title: Re: HO Scale loop problem
Post by: pdlethbridge on January 03, 2009, 10:05:17 PM
thir is how a reverse loop should be wired and insulated. ( From Jim Banner's site )

http://www.members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/loop/loop1.gif (http://www.members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/loop/loop1.gif)