Bac-Man, et al
I have my conversion to DCC well under way. After a couple of glitches, things seem to be smoothing out.
One curious problem. When I run my DC locomotives, they run opposite to the direction indicator on the DC Controller.
The DC Controller is connected using the supplied interconnect cable to the DCC Controller, as recommended by the E-Z
Command instructions. I tried my grandson's month old Bachmann DC locomotive and it did the same thing.
Any ideas?
Right now it sounds like the 8 pin NMRA plug is not in correctly. Unplug it it and switch it around. This is a fail safe you might say, design by the NMRA.
Rich
Rich,
It sounds like the 8 pin plug-in that you are referring to is the one located in the locomotive. My DC locomotives are all
pre-DCC and none of them have the NMRA plug. My grandson's locomotive is non-DCC ready, and I don't believe it has one either.
If this is incorrect and you are referring to another location, could you please explain where it is and how to get to it.
Thanks in advance.
Sorry, I did not read your first message completely. I am not aware of how the EZ Command works for running DC only locos.
I have only used an older MRC 2000 for something like this.
Rich
Have you tried switching the wires to the track terminal section, as you would if DC power is applied directly to the tracks and the loco's direction does not "match" the direction switch for your chosen direction of running?
DCC locos will run forward/reverse as programmed and are not affected by orientation of loco on the tracks or track polarity. But a DC loco is affected by orientation / track polarity.
If you have EZ Track, then just pull the track terminal plug and turn it over. If your terminal section has screws, reverse the wires.
Most DC controller direction switches are not labeled "forward" or "reverse". (at least none of mine are) Most assume that if the direction switch is mounted horizontally, and the switch is to the right, or if the switch is mounted vertically and the switch is in the up position, that indicates "forward". Not necessarily, if the terminal plug is inserted correctly for, say counterclockwise running, and you turn the loco around on the tracks, the loco will then run backwards due to the "right rail rule", thus not matching the relative position of the direction switch.
In short, position of the direction switch on a DC controller is relative only to track wiring connection and direction of running. By "direction of running", I am referring to counterclockwise (right running), or clockwise (left running).
I hope my explanation does not confuse you. Every modeler needs to understand the "right rail rule" for DC locomotives. The rule is, when the loco is moving "forward", then from the engineer's perspective, the right rail will be positive.
I should have included that information. The DCC controlled turnouts also appear to be polarity sensitive. When I first set up the DCC, I put a DC locomotive on the tracks and set the power cable to the tracks so that the DC locomotive ran in the same direction as the direction indication on the DC controller. The DCC controlled turnouts would not function properly for more than one cycle of the turn outs. So, I had to turn over the power cable to make the DCC turnouts operate. That caused the DC locomotives to reverse.
puzzled?
I am not familiar with the DCC turnouts, so I cannot attest to them being polarity sensitive.
Someone with knowledge of these turnouts will have to take it from here.
:DGREETINGS!! ???Bob, please excuse me, but I have somewhat of a "problem" with the "right-rail-rule": Some of my engines go one way, others go the other way, so how does one determine which is the "right" rail? ???(On some engines, would not the "right" rail be the opposite rail on other engines??) :-[
THANX!!
8) Ernie
P.S.
This is, of course, applying to DC TRAINS!!
THANX!!
ECD
Some years ago I learned, do not know where, that the right rail, engineers side, when it is plus DC compared to the fireman's side, left rail, the engine will go forward. I have always had a multimeter. The power pack should be in the FWD direction mode. Sometimes I had to switch the wires at the power pack to archive this.
If I ever had a loco do the opposite, I unsolder the motor wires and reversed them. This might have happened once.
Many locos have the motor mounted so the terminal on top is marked red or somehow designated as the terminal for plus voltage for forward. My interpretation.
All the recent steamers I have are like that. This has been my experience.
You will probably find something in the NMRA wiring standards that address this issue.
Rich
I found it finally. http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/
Store this in your Favorites folder. I just did.
I used Google and searched for "nmra wiring standards locomotive direction" in case you wonder how I found the link. No quotation marks.
The NMRA has a lot of standards the many modelres are not aware of.
Rich
Hawaiiho,
I did a search of the archives and found the following thread, in which "Moses" mentions setting the default turnout position. I am thinking your problem has to do with initial programming of the turnout. If you have the instructions, please review them again for a possible error in your programming sequence or method.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,8008.0.html
To all:
The right rail rule is explained in Electrical Standards S-9 item II A as follows:
(quote)
II. CONTROL
A. Direction control by polarity reversing shall be provided. Positive potential applied to the right hand rail shall produce forward motion. (3)
(3) The term "right hand rail" as used herein means the rail to the right of the observer standing between the rails with their back to the front of the locomotive.
(end quote)
Suggest bookmarking/copying the following for reference:
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-9.html
???GREETINGS!! :oI'm confused!! Is this to say that the engines (note plurality) that operate in the opposite direction were not manufactured to NMRA STANDARDS?
As I remember, there were two trains on THE ADAMS FAMILY that ran in opposite directions and it made for a good scene in several of their pro 8)grams!
At any rate, I do enjoy the fact that some of my engines operate in opposite directions!! ;D
THANX!!
8) Ernie
If two DC locomotives are wired to comply with the standards, then it is impossible to run them both in opposite directions, with both locos moving forward. Even if you have separate loops, both connected and powered by the same controller, one locomotive will run forward, the other will run backwards.
As Rich pointed out, a loco not wired in compliance with the standards requires switching the motor wires in order to run two or more in consist, regardless of orientation.
Repeating my previous comments, we all have a mindset that the position of the direction switch is relative to direction of motion. True, with DC power, we attach the track wires so it does work that way, but if we then decide to run the opposite direction, the direction switch no longer matches (to our eye) the motion unless we switch track wires.
If I ran strictly DC, I would install another switch on the controller labeled R and L for right hand or left hand running, to make the direction switch always visually "match" my desired running direction.
Yampa Bob,
I have checked the programing. They are programmed according to Bachmann's instructions and the default setting is straight
as provided by Bachmann.
It's not that the turnouts reverse, they quit working totally. If the polarity of the power feed to the track is reversed so that
the DC locomotives run in the direction indicated on the DC controller, then the DCC turnouts quit operating.
If the polarity of the power feed to track is set so that the turnouts work, then the DC locomotives run in the direction
opposite to what is indicated on the DC controller.
Yes, I understand the problem. Unfortunately I don't have the answer. The only solution I can think of is to just ignore the position of the direction switch, until someone else can shed some light on this.
I have no need for DCC turnouts, if they weren't expensive I would buy one simply to learn more about them. If I had the same problem, I would probably take the turnout apart and switch the power wires to the decoder. I'm thinking that would produce the same results you got when you switched wires at the track terminal.
Of course, being retired I no longer get paid to think, so the "thinker" is a bit rusty at times. :D Believe me, I share your frustration, and will follow this thread closely as I am always eager to learn more about this fascinating hobby.
A question in my mind is, are the DCC turnouts not wired to be compatible with the add-on DC controller?
Quote from: Yampa Bob on January 28, 2009, 08:01:24 PM
If two DC locomotives are wired to comply with the standards, then it is impossible to run them both in opposite directions, with both locos moving forward. Even if you have separate loops, both connected and powered by the same controller, one locomotive will run forward, the other will run backwards.
As Rich pointed out, a loco not wired in compliance with the standards requires switching the motor wires in order to run two or more in consist, regardless of orientation.
:DThis is much like the definition of "NORMAL"!! What is "normal" to one may be completely "abnormal" to another, but, then again, that's what makes this hobby, as well as AMERICA so wonderful and unique! I can still be "WEIRD", and yet, "NORMAL"!!
My trains that run in opposite directions have not been tampered with nor changed... they came from the manufacturer that way! Were they not manufactured according to "STANDARD"? I don't know. When was that STANDARD adapted? Some of them are POCHER and TYCO, so that would automatically say that they are a few days old; others are ATHEARN and AHM. I'm not sure if any of my BACHMANN'S run different ways, but they well may. Even if they are made in CHINA, this is still the good ol' U.S. of A.!! ;D
THANX!!
8) Ernie
Repeating my previous comments, we all have a mindset that the position of the direction switch is relative to direction of motion. True, with DC power, we attach the track wires so it does work that way, but if we then decide to run the opposite direction, the direction switch no longer matches (to our eye) the motion unless we switch track wires.
If I ran strictly DC, I would install another switch on the controller labeled R and L for right hand or left hand running, to make the direction switch always visually "match" my desired running direction.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on January 28, 2009, 08:47:34 PM
A question in my mind is, are the DCC turnouts not wired to be compatible with the add-on DC controller?
Interesting, I have the same question in my mind. Trying to get an answer from Bachmann is nearly as frustrating as the exceedingly poor documentation that they provide.
Dear Hawaii and Bob,
As I have mentioned elsewhere, the DCC turnouts throw contrary to the symbol on Dynamis. Presumably this will be addressed in future production. I have quickly gotten used to it; I simply push the button not highlighted.
Have fun!
the Bach-man
Yes, I remember the comment about the Dynamis, however Hawaii is using EZ Command, not Dynamis. Is the problem with the turnouts or with Dynamis?
As I read it, the problem is not with direction of throw, but that the turnout is totally inoperative when the track is wired to allow the DC controller direction switch to match direction of travel.
Hawaii,
In lieu of a schematic or troubleshooting guide, I usually resort to taking things apart to either fix or re-engineer the thing. I have taken regular turnouts apart, nothing that a good tinkerer can't handle. It's up to you, I only offer it as a suggestion since there are no other solutions being presented.
Bob,
I'm a tinkerer also. I'm afraid what I have here, though is not something mechanical. I could be wrong, but I think the cause
rests in that the electrial polarity is some how interferring with digital command signals.
Yampa Bob, Jim Banner and All,
If it helps,
The 2 piece (wall-wart and controller) 44212 HO/On30/N DC power pack set w/AC accesories terminals is wired as follows:
"16VAC IN" 5.5mm power jack accepts the transformer plug:
Plug inside terminal: transformer out "hot" 16VAC 120 Hz 1 Amp.
Plug outside terminal: transformer out "common" or "return".
Transformer (alone) measures 17.1 VAC open, 15.4 VAC @ 1.1 Amp
(Which is probably within spec. for such a transformer.)
"To Track" 3-pole power out jack is a standard 1/8" (3.5 mm) stereo audio jack. (Don't even think about it.)
Tip: 16VAC "hot" inside terminal--> circuit breaker (unknown Amp rating) -->tip: current protected AC accessories
Ring: 16VAC "hot" inside terminal--> circuit breaker (same) -->
half wave rectification --> direction/voltage control --> current sensing/limiting --> ring: +/-DC track power
Common: 16VAC IN Plug "common" outside terminal --> common: "To Track" common (return path for both tip AC and ring DC)
Push/Insert/Release AC accessories terminals:
Nearest "To Track" out jack: 16VAC IN "hot" inside terminal--> circuit breaker (same) --> PTC (positive temp. coefficient thermister - measured 1.2 Ohms @ room temp.) --> P/I/R AC out "hot".
Nearest "16VAC IN" jack: 16VAC IN Plug "common" outside terminal -->P/I/R AC out "common".
Note: The LED pilot light circuit is directly lit by the "16VAC IN" hot and common nodes. A diode and cap allow the LED to "decay" to off instead of immediately going dark when transformer power is removed.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Joe,
Two questions, is the direction switch DPDT, and how difficult would it be to switch the DC output polarity on the direction switch solder lugs?
My thought is that when the DCC turnouts were designed, R&D might not have considered the fact that the EZ Command has input for a DC controller?
When Hawaii switched track terminal connections to allow the turnout to operate, the only remaining problem is the DC controller direction switch doesn't match loco direction. It's a last resort workaround, but may solve the problem.
It is also possible that the DC locos were made before the NMRA right rail rule went into effect, and the motor wires are reversed. RichG mentioned he had to switch motor wires on one to compensate.
Attention: the Bach-mann
Apparently there is a known problem with the DCC turnouts when using them with Dynamis. The throw is opposite to the selected position. In my case the problem is that the DCC turnouts quit operating.
Is this issue is known to Bachmann and if not, they should be informed. Also, what might we expect as a correction?
Any information would be very much appreciated.
Jim Banner, Please contact me off-line, joebarbATwwtDOTnet Thanks.
Bob,
The direction switch in the 44212 HO DC controller is actually an SPDT. Cut 2 foils and jumper 2 wires to change direction.
I'm not sure that everyone understands the NMRA right hand rule.
Assume an East-West chunk of straight track is in front of (north of) you and your controller is hooked up so that when the direction arrow is pointed left, an engine facing west goes west. (Follows NMRA right hand rule.)
If you turn that engine around on the track, it will still go west. (Repeat the last sentence until it sinks in.)
This allows for back to back consisting of DC engines with similar speed.
Ernie,
The TV show Addams Family ran Lionel 3-Rail-O trains.
With some manipulation, you can set the engines to always go forward.
Set them on the track facing each other for your cornfield meet with optional dynamite.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I am confident that Hawaii understands the right rail rule, but that is not the issue.
Once again, here is the real issue as I understand: Hawaii is feeding the DC controller output through the EZ Command controller, and when he switches the track terminal connections to make the DC controller direction indicator correct, then the DCC turnouts won't work. If he switches the terminal connections to make the turnouts work, then the DC controller direction switch is wrong. It is a case of "one or the other", but not both working correctly.
At this point, it seems the only solution is to ignore the position of the DC direction switch until the turnout issue is resolved/corrected by Bachmann.
Thanks Bob.
Absolutely and totally correct.
I am seriously considering making two little stickums with arrows on them, and placing them on the DC controller where the
direction indicating arrows are located. There-by correcting the direction arrows.
That should provide a laugh to my friends when they come over to see my brand new Bachmann layout.
Dear Hawaii,
If you want more than "live with it" on your 44212 DC controller:
The printed circuit board foil cuts (Xacto knife) and wire jumps are pretty straightforward to someone who has previously modified PC boards.
Do you know any technicians, or have a tech school nearby?
You could aviod cutting the foil by de-soldering and lifting the right and left leg of the switch. You would still have to criss-cross wire the legs back to the opposite foils, though.
switch
L M R
/ \
X X <- Foil cuts or leg lifts. Check with ohm-meter across the cuts to assure "open" circuits.
/ \
switch
L M R
/\ \
X \ X
/ \ ___\ <- jumper wire switch left leg to right foil
switch
L M R
/ /\
X / X
/___/ \ <- jumper wire switch right leg to left foil
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I don't have the 44212 controller, but do have the interconnecting cable that came with EZ Command.
I would be inclined to replace the output plug on the cable, switching the wires in the process. This would preserve the controller as is for powering a DC track.
Radio Shack has the plug, easy soldering job. The plug has a metal screw on barrel, so the wires could be switched again later if needed, or just buy another OEM stock cable. Cables are much cheaper than controllers.
In fact, it would be very easy to make up a separate short adapter cable, male plug on one end, female socket on the other, with the wires switched. Then all your OEM components would be preserved.
Y-Bob,
The way this controller design works is to electronically choose between a "+" supply and a "-" supply, with a common "ground" in between as the return path.
I'd be cautious about trying to reverse the plug. The ring (+/- DC track out) returns through the common shank,
as does the tip (AC accesories, hot.) If you swap the DC and common, The AC would then be trying to return through the +/- DC track out. Not good.
So, you are limited to low tech "direction stickers", living with it, or 2 cuts and 2 jumps.
I suppose you could also use the excuse "that's the direction on the other side of the oval."
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I am at a disadvantage in that I don't have a controller to study.
I have a couple of old DC locomotives that I would like to run on my DCC layout, so I will obtain the 44212 controller and study the circuitry. I also have two extra Magnum controllers, I am curious if one of them could be modified to accept the interconnection cable.
Thanks, Joe, for the information.
Jim Banner posted the below on his site back in2005. Will not help right now but maybe if we ask Jim, he might continue to explore this controller.
http://www.members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/EZcommand/index.html
With Jim and Bob working on this issue, there should be some answers in the future.
Rich
Dear All,
I have new 44212 controllers to sell. Email me with zip code for Fedex ground estimate. Addy 8 posts above.
If you wanted me to do the cuts and jumps to change the direction, I would do so for you or anyone else on the board at no extra charge.
Bob, as long as your Magnum controller DC outputs float, (ungrounded) you should be able to wire a jack "+" to the ring and "-" to the shank. The tip should remain unconnected, which means that your EZ-Command unit would have to have its transformer plugged in to work.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thanks for the offer, but I have a controller on the way. Added to some other stuff I needed was enough to get free shipping.
I suggested modifiying the DC controller only as a workaround for the problem. However, that doesn't really solve the problem. It's like doing surgery on a toe to fix a hangnail on a finger, and I probably should not have suggested it. Chalk it up to "thinking out loud".
We know that some locomotives, tenders and accessories are shipped with incorrect wiring. Who is to say the DCC remotes in question are not also wired incorrectly? This might go undetected unless a DC controller was added to the mix.
It was noted earlier that switching track terminal connections make the turnout work properly. Therefore, wouldn't it be more logical to simply switch the decoder power input wires in the turnout?
When troubleshooting, I concentrate on the obvious first, (is it plugged in) then work toward the obscure. At this point, I still believe the turnout needs to be rewired to be compatible with the rest of the system rather than the opposite approach.
To my knowledge, this has been the first occurrence of this problem brought to the attention of the board, there could be many other occurrences we just haven't as yet heard about.
dc locomotive problem
hawaiiho does not have any problems with his dc locomotives. They all run backwards in relation to the markings on his dc controller. And he has already explained that - he had to reverse the connections to his tracks to make his DCC controlled turnouts work.
DCC turnout problem
I am not overly familiar with Bachmann's DCC controlled turnouts. But I assume the built in decoder is connected internally to the rails and that there is no external wiring required. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
If this is the case, the decoder should not be phase ("polarity") sensitive. Close your eyes and visualize a long run of straight track with an industry on each side of it. Imagine that the first industry has a facing point left hand turnout leading into a stub siding. Then imagine that the second industry has a trailing point left hand turnout leading into its stub siding. The diagram below shows what I have in mind.
_____________________
_________________/_______________________________________
___________________/
The important thing here is that the two turnouts are identical left hand units but in are installed in the opposite direction. This means that any DCC signal and power that they get from the rails are opposite in phase. And yet would we fully expect both of them to work.
That, and the lack of previous reports of phase problems with DCC turnouts make me strongly suspect that one or both of the DCC turnouts in question is/are faulty. I would suggest removing them from the layout and testing them one at a time. While under test, the only track that should be connected to the turnout is a terminal/rerailler section for connecting DCC power. Needless to say, both turnouts would have to be tested with both connector orientations, a total of four test. I hope hawaiiho will take the time to do these tests and let us know the results. It would be educational for all of us.
Jim,
I read the entire thread and noticed this comment by Hawaii in his third post. The first sentence caught my attention.
(quote)
"The DCC controlled turnouts would not function properly for more than one cycle of the turn outs. So, I had to turn over the power cable to make the DCC turnouts operate. That caused the DC locomotives to reverse."
(/quote)
I have no idea how the decoder is wired. In my mind I see two wires for track power, and 3 wires to the solenoid, just like a regular remote turnout is wired to a selector switch from the AC accessory terminals. Now this is a long shot, but I'm grasping at straws.
What if......One decoder track wire (input) is connected to the solenoid in error, and one of the decoder solenoid wires (output) is connected to the track in error?
Hmm, nope, that might explain the "one cycle", but still doesn't explain why reversing the terminal wires makes it work ok.
I agree the turnout is probably defective, but will a replacement be any different.?
My poor old brain is fried, not used to this much thinking. 8)
Bob, Jim, Hawaii, All,
Are the solenoids Atlas type Dual AC (3-wire) or LGB type single DC (2-wire)?
Is the DC offset causing the problem?
I would suggest 2 more batteries of tests, same as above, but with DC controller full forward, then full reverse.
Looking at Jim's EZ-Command Power Supply diagram, it looks like
a +DC controller track output forces the positive rail of the EZ-command more positive, but doesn't affect the negative rail.
Likewise,
a -DC controller track output forces the negative rail of the EZ-command more negative, but doesn't affect the positive rail.
Perhaps the "kick" for the solenoid is taken from one polarity or the other, and the DC offset diminishes that polarity in one direction and enhances it in the other.
Another thought, could the electrical noise of the DC engine's brushes be confusing the turnout's decoder?
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Joe, the DCC turnouts are neither 3 wire nor two wire. They are controlled by a built in DCC decoder. To quote the description of the turnouts no special wiring or control boxes needed. Click on the link below for more information:
http://modeltrains.about.com/b/2008/04/23/dcc-turnouts-from-bachmann.htm (http://modeltrains.about.com/b/2008/04/23/dcc-turnouts-from-bachmann.htm)
Bob, on rereading hawaiiho's description of the problem I am left wondering what he meant by "functioning for one cycle." To me a single cycle would be throwing one way and then throwing back again to the original position. "Cycle" comes from "circle" and one cycle means going through a series of processes until you reach the starting point again. Think about a single cycle of ac voltage or current. We start at zero, go up to a positive peak, then down through zero to a negative peak and back to zero. But maybe hawaiiho was trying to tell us that his turnout will throw one way but not throw back again. What do you think?
Without asking him, I think he means throws one way then goes dead. To you and me that would be a "half-cycle".
I was referring to the three wires that run from a selector switch to a standard turnout solenoid, thus three wires from the decoder to accomplish the same action. May not be actual wires, maybe the decoder and solenoid are integrated on a pc board. As "Schultz" would say, "I know nuuuuthing".
I believe he plans to contact service tomorrow, I know he is very busy at this time. You might say I'm just acting as his "interpreter". :D
If service sends replacements, and they work ok, then we may never know what the problem is/was. As one member recently told me, many consider a decoder just another mechanical device, plug it in it works. If it doesn't work send it back. In other words, the good old KISS approach.
Jim,
Just brainstorming about the internals. I understand that it's all integrated.
The decoder still has to energize some kind of motor. Thought the actual wires to the motor might be visible, or visible after a cover is removed, or that the motor might look exactly like the non-DCC turnout, enough to give us a clue.
"Note: E-Z Command Turnouts are not for use in DC power pack operations."
Perhaps this quote even refers to having the 44212 plugged in to the EZ-Command, which Bob asked about in an earlier post to this thread.
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
I will reply to all the recent posts in one message and save space.
I have tried the DCC turnouts separately. No difference.
By "cycle", I mean both ways. I have two DCC turnouts. The third time that I try to use either of the DCC turnouts(not even just
the same DCC turnout), they will both fail to respond. Turning over the power connector to the track cures that problem.
If it were electrical noise causing that problem, then it is electrical noise that is common to every DC locomotive that I have plus
a brand new Bachmann DC locomotive that belongs to my grandson. Not impossible, but why would Bachmann suggest
using the DC controller through the DCC EZ Command using the provided interconnect cable, if it caused this kind of problem?
The reversing of the trains relative to the arrows on the DC controller; again, this involves all DC trains, older and newer. Again,
turning over the power feed to the track fixes this, but then the DCC turnouts start doing their thing.
I called Bachmann Tech this morning. He said he had no clue, but would research it with others in the department and email me.
He did say that he thought it "unlikely" that it was faulty DCC turnouts, since they came from different sources.
Hawaii
If I read your post corrrectly, if you unplug the DC controller from the EZ Command, then the turnouts still don't function properly without switching the terminal connections....is that correct? If not, please unplug the DC controller, then try to operate the turnouts. Then switch terminal wires and try them again.
If the turnouts still malfunction with DC controller unplugged, let's eliminate the DC controller from the equation, and concentrate solely on the turnout and EZ Command. When I troubleshoot, I make notes as I go. Let's summarize.
1. The note Joe mentioned says "Not for use in DC power pack operations". Since a DC pack is not being used, the DC controller is supposed to work in conjunction with DCC turnouts. (I'm trying to refrain from using the word "assume")
2. As Jim reminded us, orientation of the turnout shouldn't matter, the turnout should not be polarity sensitive. If the two turnouts are being used in a crossover configuration, and the turnouts are polarity sensitive, then switching terminal wires would make one turnout work, the other wouldn't work, and vice versa. This raises the question: When terminal wires are switched, does it affect both turnouts or just one or the other?
3. These particular turnouts are polarity sensitive, for reasons unknown.
4. Since the track is powered DCC, and not DC, I'm thinking the DC controller should not be polarity sensitive either. I would think the EZ Command has sensing circuitry so that the direction switch would not be affected by track connections.
5. If we ignore the turnouts, the DC controller does control all the DC locomotives, and frees up address 10 for another DCC locomotive.
6. If replacement turnouts correct the problem, then the original turnouts are defective. If replacements do not fix the problem, we are left with two conclusions.
A. All DCC turnouts are defective. (though no other reports like this one)In this case "source" is immaterial.
B. The EZ Command is defective.
7. One remote possibility...could there be a high resistance short , or a high resistance open, somewhere in the tracks, that is affecting the decoders?
Bob, I hope I have all this straight. I tried so many things, I' getting it all mixed together. Everything worked fine UNTIL I connected the DC controller and the DCC controller together using the interconnect cable per Bachmann EZ Command Manual. When I did that, the DC loco ran backwards, compared to the indicating arrows on the DC controller. So, as one would do with any DC controller where the loco ran backward, I reversed the power connection to the track by turning over the connector. That corrected the direction reversal, but that is when the DCC turnout went flakey. When I got my second DCC turnout, I replaced the original turnout with the new one--same results. I then installed both turnouts--same result. I have tried two different DC controllers(mine and the one that came with my grandson's Christmas present. I have tried the DCC turnouts, one at a time and both together. The only thing that corrects both problems is to separate the DC and DCC controllers by removing the interconnect cable, returning DC loco control to channel 10 of the DCC controller and using the DC controller only as a power supply for the remote turnouts.
I hope that covers every thing without getting to far into detail.
hawaiiho, you have stated the problem very well. Those of us who are trying to help have not always read the details correctly, but that is not unusual in a complex problem. But I am left with one question - is the Bachmann dc power pack you are using the model 44212? Bachmann has produced many other power packs over the years, including some that look identical to the 44212, but the 44212 is the only one reccmmended for use with the E-Z Command.
Hawaii wrote: "Everything worked fine UNTIL I connected the DC controller". That is the information I wanted.
Three concerns:
1. You are powering the DC controller with the supplied transformer, correct?
2. Before you plugged the DC controller into the EZ command, you were powering the EZ Command with its own transformer, re "Everything worked fine".
3. Before you plugged the DC controller into EZ Command, did you by any chance forget to unplug the EZ Command transformer plug from the "AC IN" jack?
It's an easy oversight, the picture at the bottom of page 6 (picture number 17) is rather small, and the note about powering EZ Command THROUGH the DC controller is on page 7, there should be a big bold warning.
When I first read the manual months ago, I was not interested in adding a DC controller, and with only a quick glance, I erroneously thought both transformers to be used.
I saw the note, plus, any time I work on ANYTHING electrical, I unplug it first. A throw back to my Ham gear.
Some of those transformers could really "bite".
Ok, it was just a long shot, I can't think of anything else.
Bob,
Your already one up on me. I ran out of ideas several days ago.
Everyone may think I am crazy but I am wondering that due to design that is the way it is supposed to work. It may be that the DC contoller when plugged into EZ command controller trys to consider the turnout as a DC loco. A shot in the dark.
Don ???
Don,
If that's the case the HO Tech support people at Bachmann don't know anything about it.
They were in the dark and said they would research it, talk to others in the department, and then get back to me by
email if they figured it out.
We should probably make up a special trophy for "stumping the panel". :D
Don, your idea has some merit, there is some kind of conflict between the turnouts and the DC controller. Another case of either/or but not both.
I'll be at Caboose Hobbies next week, see what I can find out. I found a picture of the decoder, appears to have two wires in and three wires out. Interesting.
Jim's EZ-Command power supply diagram on his club's website shows that the DC controller's AC power is ignored if the EZ-Command's transformer is plugged in. Correct? (Stereo plug tip-AC, shank-common return)
http://members.shaw.ca/sask.rail/dcc/EZcommand/index.html
Joe Satnik
Thanks, Joe,
Joe
Your are correct. However you cannot have the EZ Command transformer plugged into the "16 V AC IN" jack on the EZ Command controller, AND the DC controller transformer (through the DC controller) plugged into the "From DC Controller" jack on the EZ Command controller, AT THE SAME TIME. Both jacks share a common ground, the result will be either an AC voltage connected to a DC voltage, or two AC voltages that are not supplied by a common source.
I do not know yet if the DC controller plug shank is at AC ground potential or DC ground potential. But you can't have two separate power supplies sharing a common ground without proper phase or blocking circuitry. It's a case of either one, but not both.
Simply unplugging the EZ Command transformer from the wall is not adequate, as the plug tip still disables the DC input tip, thus removing the tip potential from the entire circuit. The instructions in the manual should say: "When using the 44212 DC controller, remove the EZ command transformer plug from EZ command, unplug the transformer from the wall, roll it up and put it in a drawer. It is not needed, and must not be connected to the EZ Command controller."
Call it "thinking out loud" if you will, I have tossed this around in my mind for several days. It's impossible to diagnose without the components at hand to test. It's like a Doctor doing a physical over the phone or by email, with no documented history of previous similar illnesses.
Hopefully I will have more information next week.
Regards
The 2 wires in and 3 out sounds right for a decoder in a switch. The 3 out would be like the blue yellow and white on a regular decoder for directional lighting with the blue as common. the other 2 of the 3 wires would be straight or curved. Does the decoder get programmed like a regular decoder and get its own address?
I compare it to the usual 2 wires from a power pack AC accessories connected to a selector switch (the decoder) and the 3 wires out connected to a dual solenoid, with one wire as common feed.
I have briefly reviewed the programming instructions, but frankly haven't tried to comprehend it as I have no plans for using DCC turnouts. Personally I think this is carrying automation too far. I'll take old reliable manual throws or selector switches any day.
I don't like commenting on things I don't have personal experience with, this is all just theorizing. If I'm wrong, my wife will still fix me breakfast tomorrow so no big deal. 8)
Fat chance! ;D
my thought was that the switch, decoder equipped, receives a signal via the track like a loco. On my layout, my turnouts are decoder equipped, a digitraxx ds 64 that controls up to 8 turnouts each receives a signal from the track, that lets me control them from my hand held power cab.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on February 04, 2009, 10:16:49 PM
... you cannot have the EZ Command transformer plugged into the "16 V AC IN" jack on the EZ Command controller, AND the DC controller transformer (through the DC controller) plugged into the "From DC Controller" jack on the EZ Command controller, AT THE SAME TIME. Both jacks share a common ground, the result will be either an AC voltage connected to a DC voltage, or two AC voltages that are not supplied by a common source.
Actually Bob, you can. When you plug the E-Z Command transformer into the E-Z Command, it automatically disconnects the ac power (but not the dc signal) being received from the 44212. It does not matter that there is a common connection between the jacks because there is no common connection between the transformers. The transformers used to power our model railroads perform two, equally important functions. They reduce the voltage to a safe level. And they isolate that voltage from the power line. That way there is no chance of full line voltage ever appearing on our rails.
Incidentally, that is the reason that manufacturers are banned from using simpler, cheaper auto-transformers in model railroad power supplies. Auto-transformers do have a common connection to the power line and plugging one in one way and another in the other way could result in up to 240 volts at up to 20 amps appearing between their low voltage outputs. Even if your outlets meet your National Electrical Code!
Simply unplugging the E-Z Command transformer from the wall does create a problem. Leaving the low voltage end plugged into your E-Z Command stops it from receiving power from your 44212, even if the latter is plugged in and turned on.
If your E-Z command transformer has a higher rating than your 44212 transformer, you might want to use both of them so that the former gives you maximum power to your E-Z Command and the latter allows your 44212 to function.
Bottom line, the designers got it right.
Possibly, but consider this, if it's ok to use both transformers, wouldn't the instruction manual so indicate? Both the picture and note indicate using only the DC controller transformer. Or is the manual wrong?
Personally, I wouldn't take a chance using both transformers at the same time as it contradicts the manual, which might void the warranties. Perhaps the designers should re-study this issue and add clarity or emphasis in the manual.
The designers may have "got it right", but the fact remains that the controller seems to be in conflict with the turnouts.
Meanwhile, I have searched the net for days and found no mention of the symptoms in this thread. Let's hope this is a one time fluke, and not an epidemic.