athearn challecger is nice but almost $300 bugs. Rivarosi challenger is a old design dyes were made i middle ages (ha ha) and there is not many left.
bachmann has 2-6-6-2 beautiful engine (my wedding pic ar my 2-6-6-2 standing alone tough call which one i like better). 2-6-6-2 spectrum engine close to perfection. some body work, new tender. change front truck from 2 wheels to 4 front and back and hear he is
spectrum 4-6-6-4 challenger. LETS FIND OUT HOW MANY VOTES WOULD MAKE BACHMANN CONCIDER PRODUCTION. THERE IS COMPETITON, BUT MARKET IS GOOD TO.
I SAY LETS VOTES AND SUBMIT OUR SIGNATURES FOR CHALLENGER TO SEE IF THE WOULD APPROVE. IF NOT HOW MANY MORE WOULD IT TAKE.
WHOP IS WITH ME?
I SAY SPECTRUN CHALLENGER COME TO US:
1. JWOJ69 JACKW VOTE NUMBER ONE
2. YOUR VOTE HERE
Depending on the price they could produce it for, i'd sure like to see one. The 2-6-6-2 is a great engine, and a 4-6-6-4 would be even better.
Given that the Bachmann Heavy USRA Mountain has a list price of $250, I doubt if you'd gain much price wise on the athearn offering.
I'd much rather see Bachmann produce a loco that someone else isnt currently making.
Mark
That's not really practical , as the only common thing is the two sets of six drivers, and even those are not similar.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/river_eagle/N-Challenger/3985-4.jpg)
The Bachmann is much smaller, from the drivers up
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f123/river_eagle/N-Turtle_Creek_Central/tcc2662/TCC2662-10.jpg)
Bachmann does steam well, at a reasonable market price. But so does Athearn. Even if Bachmann pared the development expenses to the bone, you're still talking about a $275-325 end result. Also, the Challenger has been over-done, with two plastic versions and at least two brass versions over the past three decades. The Athearn model represents the apex of the craft at this point.
With less variance these days between producers, duplicate products benefit nobody and actually damage the market because it takes longer to recover the fixed costs.
So... want a Challenger? Buy the Athearn. It's good... really good. Prevail on Bachmann to make something different. Like an FEF-3. ;D
Quote from: C855B on March 10, 2009, 10:31:35 AM
So... want a Challenger? Buy the Athearn. It's good... really good. Prevail on Bachmann to make something different. Like an FEF-3. ;D
For the FEF - look to Athearn, their steam locos in N so far have been directly taken from their HO lineup so far, so I would not be surprised if the FEF is Athearn's next N steamer:
(http://www.athearn.com/ProdInfo/ATH/250/ATHG9206-250.jpg)
QuoteI SAY LETS VOTES ...
I "votes" nay.
I would much rather see Bachmann focus their next steam effort on a Pacific, either light or heavy versions.
Of all the thousands of different steam locomotives needed in N scale, we certainly do not need a repeat of one that has already been made twice as a plastic and metal RTR model. As a Pennsy modeler I could use a K4s Pacific, an H10s Consolidation, an H6sb Consolidation, an I1sa Decapod, and a C1 0-8-0.
As long as Bachmann has made the 3751 class 4-8-4 of the ATSF in N, I am surprised it has never made a 5011 class 2-10-4. After all, these made it East in the Summer of 1956 and 1957 to move coal to Lake Erie on the PRR!
But, the wheel arrangement most wanted in N and not available is the Ten-Wheeler. It was also among the most common built. Give us a CNJ or RDG Camelback or a PRR or LIRR G5s!
I DO NOT THING MANY PEOPLE LIKE MY IDEA OF BACHMANN PRODUCING 4-6-6-4 ( EVEN THEIR PRICE PROBABLY WOULD BE LESS THAN HALF OF ATHEARN) I HAVE ON ENGINE EVERYONE WOULD LOVE. 4-8-8-2 CAB FORWARD. I SEEN IN BRASS AND RIVAROSSI SUPPOSELY MADE ONE. IT IS ON BREATH TAKING DESIGN.
The Espee 4-8-8-2 Cab Forwards are due from InterMountain next month. :o
thidrail post it that intermountain will come with cab forward next month, any idea on pricing?
Quote from: jwoj69 on March 14, 2009, 01:33:46 AM
I DO NOT THING MANY PEOPLE LIKE MY IDEA OF BACHMANN PRODUCING 4-6-6-4 ( EVEN THEIR PRICE PROBABLY WOULD BE LESS THAN HALF OF ATHEARN)...
Apologies to the others, but I can't let this pass...
You clearly don't have a realistic (or, possibly, current) notion of what it costs to commercially produce a model, and how the startup and tooling costs - tens of thousands of dollars - have to be recovered in the retail price. Half? Less than half? For a very complex new model with new tooling? No way. Absolutely no way. B'mann might be able to produce it, but MSRP is still going to be in the $300 ballpark.
The only "mistake" that Athearn made is not offering the Challenger in a soundless version. That adds roughly $100 to the sale price due to multiple technology licensing issues. Maybe your tack here should be to prevail on Athearn for exactly that - no sound, knock a Ben Franklin off the price.
Again - you want a Challenger, buy the Athearn. Let Bachmann add to the variety by offering
other prototypes.
Quote from: jwoj69 on March 15, 2009, 06:31:49 PM
thidrail post it that intermountain will come with cab forward next month, any idea on pricing?
Estimated MSRP is $329.
Quote from: C855B on March 16, 2009, 11:36:34 AM
The only "mistake" that Athearn made is not offering the Challenger in a soundless version. That adds roughly $100 to the sale price due to multiple technology licensing issues. Maybe your tack here should be to prevail on Athearn for exactly that - no sound, knock a Ben Franklin off the price.
Again - you want a Challenger, buy the Athearn. Let Bachmann add to the variety by offering other prototypes.
I have to agree with you on that one. Also in HO, many companys don't sell models with sound without sound. That's holding me back from buying many models.
I AGREE, IF IT COMES TO THE SOUND ISSUE. THAT IS MY REASON TO SEEK BACHMANN MAKING CHALLENGER. I THINK IT WOULD BE EASIER TO CONVINCED BACHMANN MAKING ONE, THAN ASK AETHARN TO SLICE THEIR HUGE PROFIT AND CUTOUT SOUND. SINCE I'M DEAF I NEED IT TO HEAR SOMEBODY ELSE BRINGING SOUND ISSUE.
I SEEN WHAT THAT DECODER CAN DO TO PRICE. FEW YEARS AGO I BOTH IT LIFELIKE HERITAGE 2-8-8-2 MALLET FOR ABOUT $140 THEIR STORE PRICE WAS AROUND $200. NOW WALTEHRS SELL THEM WITH SOUND FOR $300. AS MUCH AS AETHERN CHALLENGER!!
I GOT SPECRUM 2-6-6-2 (GREAT DETAIL AND POWER ENGINE) FOR LESS THAN A 100 BUGS!!!!
IF YOU THINKING ABOUT TOOLING PRICE THINK HOW MUCH BACHMANN CAN RECOVER BY JUST SELLING 1000 ENGINES ???
You are not getting it.
If it cost them $300K to tool and produce the loco, it will take sales of 5-10,000 pieces to recover their tooling at $300 retail each. Just because it sells for $300 in the store, Bachmann doesn't see but maybe a quarter or less of that and then you have to take into consideration materials and manufacturing costs, shipping....etc. etc. Bachman realistically only makes probably $10-20 profit on each loco, if that much. It takes a lot of loco sales to recover that money.
Quote from: skipgear on March 20, 2009, 12:34:17 AM
You are not getting it.
If it cost them $300K to tool and produce the loco, it will take sales of 5-10,000 pieces to recover their tooling at $300 retail each. Just because it sells for $300 in the store, Bachmann doesn't see but maybe a quarter or less of that and then you have to take into consideration materials and manufacturing costs, shipping....etc. etc. Bachman realistically only makes probably $10-20 profit on each loco, if that much. It takes a lot of loco sales to recover that money.
In 20 years of working in manufacturing, i never was quoted such high tooling cost. Bachmann owes injection molding machines. New dye runs about $6000 to $10000
On high side, one dye each for body, tender, and small parts. That's $18000 to $30000
lets double the highest number, that is $60000, to cover royalty fees (if any) and the rest.
This means $6 extra per locomotive @10000 value. I think making new engine can be more
with in reason. Especially if Bachmann would use prints from engine in another scale.
I hope it will make more sense now.
jack
The $300K number comes from quotes from ConCor and insiders at Kato. There is more to the cost than tooling alone. Research and design is part of the cost. Reseaching a loco could be a years worth of man hours alone if you can even find all the info you need. A Challenger would be easier as there are existing examples, both full size and model, to measure and photograph.
Do you really think Bachmann would buy somebody elses loco and just copy it in N? Keep in mind you are talking about tooling close to 100 parts to build a Steam loco, especially an articulated one with seprately applied details that everybody expects now. Steam costs money and I don't see it getting any cheaper. That developement money would be better spent on loco's that are not currently available or under represented.
I scratchbuild N scale steam so I know what is involved in building one. That is basing things on existing chassis as much as possible. Right now I am working on a B&O P7 and I am stuck trying to find good references to the valve gear and the backhead of the loco. Things like these can not be fudged on a production model.
This stuff is not as easy as many think it is. Look at Kato's GS-4. Kato who has had a string of hits with no errors missed some big ones on that loco and had to come up with patches to fix it. Even the best can make mistakes.
This is what I do:
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1204/S-1Parts.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/29109)
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1204/S-1_Final_Shots_4.JPG) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/63337)
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1293/CincinnatianP7d_with_Tender.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/78891)
Quote from: skipgear on March 28, 2009, 08:27:05 PM
The $300K number comes from quotes from ConCor and insiders at Kato. There is more to the cost than tooling alone. Research and design is part of the cost. Reseaching a loco could be a years worth of man hours alone if you can even find all the info you need. A Challenger would be easier as there are existing examples, both full size and model, to measure and photograph.
Do you really think Bachmann would buy somebody elses loco and just copy it in N? Keep in mind you are talking about tooling close to 100 parts to build a Steam loco, especially an articulated one with seprately applied details that everybody expects now. Steam costs money and I don't see it getting any cheaper. That developement money would be better spent on loco's that are not currently available or under represented.
I scratchbuild N scale steam so I know what is involved in building one. That is basing things on existing chassis as much as possible. Right now I am working on a B&O P7 and I am stuck trying to find good references to the valve gear and the backhead of the loco. Things like these can not be fudged on a production model.
This stuff is not as easy as many think it is. Look at Kato's GS-4. Kato who has had a string of hits with no errors missed some big ones on that loco and had to come up with patches to fix it. Even the best can make mistakes.
This is what I do:
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1204/S-1Parts.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/29109)
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1204/S-1_Final_Shots_4.JPG) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/63337)
(http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/1293/CincinnatianP7d_with_Tender.jpg) (http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showphoto.php/photo/78891)
I see Your point. Most of design could be spread in between different scales. Bachmann could produce the engine in N scale, follow version in Ho, On30, G.
I still feel that we have better chance to see N scale Challenger without sound made by Bachmann than even Athearn, do to their profit.
Bachmann has already lots of parts from 2-6-6-2 they can use. Every manufacturer will try to utilize egzisting components. Atlas diesel chassis is not changed in years, just their body.
I have faith in Bachmann that they would try to make us happy. How about Bach-man. Can You tell us Your point?
He/The Company doesn't need to, because other posters have already answered you for them. It is already being made by another company, and the tooling would be very expensive especially when they have to compete with sales. Bachmann is unique in that it offers locomotives that few of the main manufacturers care to offer. Steam locomotives that they don't have to compete against for sales would sell far more, than one that another company produces, and if they were to invest in Big Boy toolings, they would probably NOT get their money back.
Quote from: thirdrail on March 14, 2009, 11:06:13 AM
The Espee 4-8-8-2 Cab Forwards are due from InterMountain next month. :o
I had found out few days ago, about huge delay of cab forward at least until fall this year. Too many pre production problems.
jack