Has anyone had a problem where either engines or cars (especially longer cars such as 50' boxcars) derail when they pass over a Bachmann E-Z Track switch/turnout? What can be done about this? I have this problem intermittently whenever a train crosses a #5 or #6 switch/turnout. It only seems to happen with certain switches/turnouts.
I looked closely at the switch/turnout(s) in question and noticed that, as the cars cross the second rail of the track that turns out, there is a grooved plate (made of either plastic or soft metal) that appears to raise the wheels of the cars as they cross it. Can or should that groove for the wheels be deepened or am I on the wrong track here?
What I am talking about here is where the switch/turnout is closed so that the cars are going straight down the track. It seems like the wheels of some cars want to go with the turnout (as if the switch was open) instead and it makes the car derail. This also happens with some the longer engines like the Athearn SD-45, especially if I am running a 2 engine train.
Your thoughts would be helpful. This appears to be the only problem with my track layout. Otherwise, the trains and cars run fine.
Hi Brad
Please visit this page for information regarding flangeways. There is a drawing at bottom of page showing the "no rail" drop zone in the flangeway. The wheel drops in the flangeway, then hits either the frog point or the closure rail, causing the "rise" you are seeing.
http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/s-1_Overview.html
Take a loose truck with metal wheels, push the truck back and forth through the flangeway with an index finger, with varied speeds and down pressure. You will feel the wheel drop and rebound, and hear a definite "bam bam". as the wheel tread hits the frog point or closure rail.
Possible solutions are, checking and adjusting car wheel gauge with the NMRA gauge, shimming guard or wing rails as needed to keep wheel flange from picking / climbing the frog point or closure rail, and assuring your cars are properly weighted.
Regards
As Bob said, one of the most essential tools a model railroader must have is the NMRA standards gauge for your scale. Recommend checking wheel gauge be part of your inspection process on new rolling stock. I have found most problems caused by out of gauge wheel sets. You will also find tolerance variations in turnouts made on a production line. But I always start with correctly gauged wheels. Then if there is a problem with a certain turnout, you have already ruled out wheel gauge.
The 33" metal wheel sets that I have been using are made by Model Power. However, RTR cars made by Atlas with metal wheels were also derailing...especially cabooses....and it is right when they hit the frog.
The Athearn RTR freight cars with metal wheels didn't derail...except for a caboose or two.
I read the NMRA reference and was totally confused. I just didn't understand the terms that they were using.
Thanks for your advice though. I am not sure how I am going to deal with this. Jestor's comment was very helpful when he noted that if it is a problem with a certain turnout and not all of them, then I have already ruled out the wheel gauge. It's not all of the turnouts where this happens. For someone who doesn't know exactly what he is doing, I am reasonably sure that it is not the wheel gauge. The Model Power wheelsets seemed to be of very good quality.
If anyone else has any other thoughts...especially about shimming the frog and how best to do that, please offer your two cents...you comments and suggestions are most welcome.
On your cars that are prone to derail, try loosening the truck mounting screws about 1/4 turn. A truck not only must swivel freely, it must also sway or rock a little.
Some recommend a "3 point" suspension, where one truck is a bit tighter and the other truck with more rock, but I have found a car performs better when both trucks have the same, but sufficient, rocking motion.
The flangeway of most model turnouts is too long, therefore wheel drop has to be considered as normal, if a truck screw is too tight the wheel will float above the flangeway rather than "ride through it".
If the screws are too loose, then the car will tend to "hunt", (weave sideways). I seldom have derails except on a new car that is not properly adjusted.
There is another test to make sure the trucks are not warped. Place a car on a mirror, make sure all wheels touch the glass with equal pressure. If you can easily slip a thin piece of paper between any wheel and the glass, the truck is warped and needs to be straightened or replaced.
Yes, the page I linked to can be confusing at first, but suggest reading it through several times and comparing the parts shown to an actual turnout.
Keep us posted on progress
I totally agree with the above posters. If you still have a problem with derailment, what I found out is that not only Bachmann but even Atlas sometimes have a problem with the point on the movable rail, in layman's turns, see if the point is blunt or cut off, it should be to a sharp point and lay against the outside rail. This too will cause the wheel to lift. If it is blunt it needs to be filed to a point, carefully, on the outside of the movable rail until it just lays against the solid rail, be very careful not to bend the point, it is fragile. Use a jewelers file or and old auto point ignition file. Weight can also relieve the problem if the cars are to light, add some weight to them. I use the old shower basins and toilet lead bins that are lead and about 1/16 of an inch thick. some use pennies glued to the floor or bee bee's. Weight is important!
The Model Power wheelsets seemed to be of very good quality.
I am sure they are, but as other posters have said, wheel gauge is one of the most important even with expensive rolling stock. I bought a few cars in the $40.00 range and they were out of spec. If you have a micrometer caliper you can use that too. Just measure the distance between the inside of a wheel set that goes through the turnout with no problem and measure the inside of the one's that are giving you a problem. You can't beat the price of a track/wheel gauge and we all know that's most of the problem, after much head beating experience, it's one of those must have tools in model railroading.
Where can I get a wheel gauge?
Dear Brad,
Google "nmra ho track wheel gauge".
If you have a local train shop or model railroad club, they might have one.
Here's an e-bay listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/NMRA-HO-SCALE-STANDARDS-GAUGE_W0QQitemZ370170014077QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
Hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Joe Satnik
Thank you...and by the way, thank you Yampa Bob for your thoughts about making sure that the wheel trucks not only swivel freely, but that they must also allow the cars to rock a little bit. I am going to check that as well before I do anything else. Most of the cars that are encountering this problem are Roundhouse 50' or Athearn 50' boxcars kits that I assembled. I only had this issue with 1 or 2 of the Athearn 50' RTR boxcars. I hardly have this problem at all with the 40' boxcars, regardless of brand or whether they were RTR or kits. No problems with either tank cars or flat cars. It has happened with the 34' and 40' hoppers, but usually it is only 1 or 2 in the middle of maybe 5 or 6 cars being pulled. Maybe I did tighten the screw a little too much on some of them, but every so often, I also have this problem with a couple of Athearn and Atlas engines (GP-38 or SD-45). In the case of the engines that derail, it's usually the second engine in a train that is being drawn by two engines.
I also have a bag of 100 or so Atlas 33" metal wheels. If the problems continue, I'll try those on the cars in question as well.
Regarding the weights, the weights that I am using are the standard Athearn weights that either come with the Athearn cars or fit the Roundhouse cars. I also have strips of 1/4 oz. and 1/2 oz weights as well that I can stick to either end of the floors of the boxcars to increase the weight if that proves to be necessary.
I am going to try all of the above before I try to start fooling around with the frog. This doesn't happen on all of the turnouts...it only happens on 2 in particular (out of 5). The cars do definitely rise as they pass over it, though. I took a photo of a string of 34' hoppers as they passed over it and you can clearly see the tilt as they pass.
As usual, you guys make excellent suggestions that have solved several of my problems in the past, so I am hopeful that your suggestions about resolving this issue will prove to be equally fruitful. I hope that this discussion thread will be of help to others. Thanks again.
I run all EZ track and the only problem I experienced was derailing through a turnout . The turnout was slightly warped making one track higher than the other at the frog resulting in derailment . The solution was to fasten the turnout firmly to the base. Problem solved , no more derailments.
Don
Brad
Here's an article that might be helpful.
http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=247
Grumpy:
You left the following reply: "I run all EZ track and the only problem I experienced was derailing through a turnout . The turnout was slightly warped making one track higher than the other at the frog resulting in derailment . The solution was to fasten the turnout firmly to the base. Problem solved , no more derailments.
Don"
Question: What did you find to be the best way to fasten a turnout to the base?
Yampa Bob: That is an excellent article. Thanks.
Brad
I used nails long enough to go into the plywood base and hold down the turnout flat.
Don
While I agree track and wheel gauge is important, the NMRA gauge is not the "fix-all" for derailment problems. I do not have the gauge, frankly I'm not fond of "go-nogo" gauges, prefer to use a precision digital caliper.
Here's the problem. A modeler checks a wheelset and finds it .002" too narrow. Of course the modeler doesn't realize the error is insignificant, only that the wheels must be pulled and twisted to get it "exactly right" according to the gauge.
In almost 3 years of modeling, I have never had to adjust the gauge of any wheelset or track section. My trains run smooth, even through turnouts, and I seldom have a derail except on a new car that is not properly tuned and adjusted.
The NMRA tool is handy, but should be used with discretion and common sense. What I am alluding to is, don't be so preoccupied with gauge that you overlook other causes of derails, of which there are many.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on March 16, 2009, 11:33:07 PM
While I agree track and wheel gauge is important, the NMRA gauge is not the "fix-all" for derailment problems. I do not have the gauge, frankly I'm not fond of "go-nogo" gauges, prefer to use a precision digital caliper.
Here's the problem. A modeler checks a wheelset and finds it .002" too narrow. Of course the modeler doesn't realize the error is insignificant, only that the wheels must be pulled and twisted to get it "exactly right" according to the gauge.
In almost 3 years of modeling, I have never had to adjust the gauge of any wheelset or track section. My trains run smooth, even through turnouts, and I seldom have a derail except on a new car that is not properly tuned and adjusted.
The NMRA tool is handy, but should be used with discretion and common sense. What I am alluding to is, don't be so preoccupied with gauge that you overlook other causes of derails, of which there are many.
Bob absolutely correct, experience and patience, when all else fails step back and take a deep breath. Then check out all variables and possibility's
thoroughly!
I tried loosening the screws that hold the trucks on the cars in question and that seems to have solve many of the problems. For one group of about 12 cars (mainly 50' boxcars), I simply replaced the trucks with Athearn trucks instead of the ones supplied and had only 1 car derail in 2 hours of running my trains...so that seems to have taken care of most of the problem.
Once again, Yampa Bob, you made an excellent suggestion. Thank you.
You're welcome Brad. You mentioned replacing trucks and wheels. I have had good success with the complete truck/wheelsets by Model Power. I have used over 50 sets on car rebuilds, they are great rollers out of the package.
If you get the chance, pick up a couple packs and try them out, I think you will like them.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXWN06&P=SM
I have a bunch of those as well and they are good runners.
I probably should have read this posting before I posted the same problem with a #6 crossover. The replies to your posting were excellent information, especially the reference to the 2003 article on derailments. I wish the both of us "Good Luck" in solving the problem.
Hi Don
Hope the suggestions help to resolve your crossover problems.
Regards
Hey Brad, I was wondering how you made out with your derailments. I replied to your posting that I was having the same problem with the EZ track #6 crossover. After hours of trying to figure out what was causing the problem. I'll do my best to try and explain how I corrected the problem. I think your problem was identical. There was no problem if the train was switching from the inside track to the outside track. If the train was going straight through the crossover you could hear a bump and see a little jump as the engine hit the beginning of the turnout. The engine would make it through but all the subsequent cars would derail. There is a little black tab on the inside of the switch track ( I'm sure I'm not using the correct terminology ) but when it was set to go straight through the crossover that little black tab was catching the inside ( right side wheels ) wheels of the cars bumping them of the switch rail onto the regular track and causing them to try and go right when in fact they were suppose to go straight. Thus the derailment. I was initially going to try and sand off approx. 1/32 of an inch on that black tab, but I decided to just push it down with my thumb several times and just like a miracle the train went through without derailing. Not believing in such a simple solution I've run the train through the crossover about 25 times today at varying speeds and have not experienced a derailment since I pushed that silly black tab down with my thumb. I tried switching cars, adding weight to the cars etc. before this worked. Let me know how you make out. I know the other turnouts don't have the black tabs. I have had derailments with the other turnouts, but they seem to correct themselves after 2 or 3 derailments. I think Gremlins sneak down into the basement at night and try to sabotage the equipment. Good Luck.......... Don1884
Don 1884:
Sorry to delay getting back to you...I was out of town.
I also went back and took a good hard look at how the track was mounted leading to the derailments...which led to me taking up and re-laying about 3' of track between the 2 problem switches. That 3' length of track had a few small peaks and valleys in it...in areas, the track was secured too tightly. That immediately solved the problem with the first of the two switches. I could see the cars tilt and sway as they went through the sections just before and after the section with the second switch. I am still working on that one and am going to make sure that the track is absolutely level before doing anything else.
I am also going to try your suggestion re: that black tab. Good call!
Once last thought...and this is important. I have had excellent results with rehabilitating freight cars (particularly Athearn) and eliminating the derailment problem when I replaced the trucks and I also replaced the undercarriage!!! Sometimes, the lip on the undercarriage that the truck is supposed to slip over (and then be secured by the screw that mounts the truck to the body) is all beat up, flattened or warped. If you have a bad undercarriage, even if you put on brand new trucks, they won't swivel and sway correctly and the derailment problem will continue. I have successfully rehabilitated several freight car this way and eliminated derailment problems on both curves and switches.
If you can't get the undercarriages for Athearn freight cars from your local hobby shop, you can get them (3 for $2.25 I think) from Athearn. Athearn parts also fit Roundhouse freight cars (floors, undercarriages, weights and trucks). Just go to Athearn.com and check their parts list for the stock number and you can order them over the internet. I have discovered that it's more than worth it to keep a few spares on hand and recommend that you do so.
Now that I have relaid that section of track, adjusted some wheelsets and replaced some undercarriages and wheelsets, the derailment problem has been substantially reduced and almost completely eliminated. It is limited now to only 2 or 3 cars that I am going to replace some parts on (it's always the same 2 or 3 cars)...not the switches. The engines are staying on the track now, too. It appears that the problem is pretty much solved.
OK, I think we have covered this topic. The discussion was excellent...as usual. Thanks everybody!
On the terminology, "switches" or turnouts," I find in Walthers' sale catalog an HO scale "Modern Switchman" ("not turnout man), although they call their "switches" "turnouts." Why "turnout," instead of "turnin" or "turninandout"? :)
That's why a real switchman never refers to them as "turnouts". For purpose of communication on the board, we usually refer to the assembly as a "turnout" to differentiate from the electrical control "switch" that powers the solenoid.
Of course, if a member says his train derails at the "switch", I can assume he did not run over the control switch so I never correct him.
Whether "turnout" or "turnin", the device does change direction "away from" the through track, and "away" to me means "out". Does that make sense? :D
Now I'm "away from here"..... 8)
Bob, thanks for turning out another instructive comment. :)
Since it's getting late (or is it early?) think I better "turn in". :D
I am having a similar problem with my WBB on a Lionel O60 FasTrack remote switch. I have not yet fooled around to find the source of problem.
Mine happens this way:
When my AA unit heads for the turnout, the lead unit starts to round the curve and then the back end of the Dummy A goes on the straight. This opens the switch so the next car runs straight and derails the train.
My Lionel switcher, and K-line switcher have no problem on this O60 switch.
After reading this post, it sounds like mine has to do with a wheel spacing being slightly off. I need to check this out.
If you refer to the catalogues of the companies making switches/turnouts, you will quickly find that the switch is part of a turnout. The whole real world version of what we call a turnout is called a "turnout". But the part of the turnout that a switch man throws, namely the point rails (the ones that move) and their linkages is called a "switch."
When you are building your railroad (scale or full size) you install "turnouts." But when you are operating your railroad (scale or full size) you throw "switches."
On to the next important topic: are you building/operating a "railroad" or a "railway??"
Jim
Jim, You Dog! You must have been referring to my wife where one answer causes her to ask 3 more questions, ad infinitum!
Dear Bob,
Great link! I was trying to find something similarly on Harold Minkwitz's site. Harold is a great friend of Bachmann's and a sharp modeler. Here is a link to one of his articles that shows an area where the closing rail transitions to the point and it is obviously filed.
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/track/83_switches/
Best Wishes,
Jack
P.S. For you who may not have seen Harold's site, this link will take you to many of his articles how to modify Bachmann products for even better operation, or to narrow gauge scales, .
Several fellows have mentioned weight. It is important and all cars should be weighted to the same standard. If my (sometimes faulty) memory serves me correctly, HO scale cars should be weighted 1 oz plus 1/2 oz for each inch of length. So a 40 foot car, which is about 5 1/2 inches long, should weigh about 3 1/2 oz. This has always been a "close enough" standard for me. Differences of 1/4 to 1/2 oz don't seem to be significant.
I agree also with the guys who mentioned wheel gauge...I use KaDee wheel sets almost exclusively and have VERY FEW derailments. Metal wheels seem to stay cleaner, too.
Rusty
We all know that trucks have to be a little bit loose so that they can rock fore and aft and from side to side to make up for slight irregularities in the track. But do we ever check that the car as a whole can rock a little side to side without lifting any wheels off the rails? I have had a couple of cars over the years which had twisted bodies so that they could not rock, even though the trucks were loose enough. The solution was easy - strip off the details and chuck the body. It was figuring out what the problem was that was tough.
Incidentally, putting the car on a mirror soon shows what the wheels are doing when you rock the car. This works pretty well with a regular mirror but it works even better with a front silvered mirror. I got a front silvered mirror from my friendly Ford truck dealer. It seems that when one of the little motors used for adjusting the mirror gives out, they replace the whole mirror.
Jim
There is one thing I am picky about on my railroad. When I watch a train go down the straight and around the curves, I don't want to see any car shaking, wiggling, oscillating, waddling, rocking or any other form of gyration.
After much study and experimentation I have learned how to set up a car so it will observe all the natural kinematics that apply to a railcar. The trick is keeping all the forces in balance, in other words achieving equilibrium.
I have one car, a very nicely detailed Rock Island boxcar with sliding doors, that liked to do the Watusi moving down the line. I tried everything possible, but it simply wouldn't behave. It never derailed, just seemed to have a mind of its own. Even studied it on a front surface mirror, everything seemed perfect. Finally, I took the car completely apart, virtually "rekitting" it.
Turned out the two kingpin floor plates were not in the same plane, probably a molding defect. The floor wasn't twisted. I lightly sanded lengthwise with a long sanding block to true up the plates and reassembled the car. Ran smooth as silk.
Apparently the uneven mating of the kingpin plates and the truck bolster flats created a "harmonic rock", or some kind of rotary oscillation.
Now, after all that fuss and bother, my wife pulled the car from the line because "it doesn't fit our roster". Some days you just can't win. :D
Dear Bob,
Speaking of equilibrium, a local O gauge modeler found that to run his 50+ cars in a consist he had to juggle their order to prevent derailment. His rolling stock is tuned, BYW. This never occurred to me since I usually run less than 10 cars in all scales.
A local club has one guy who will put 75+ HO cars together, car carriers that are "triple play" or however you describe three cars hooked with those two center bars. Seems to run OK at slow speed.
Anyone with experience or thoughts on this?
Best Wishes,
Jack