I have an EZ Command DCC controller and an EZ Command Dynamis controller and the same loco will operate at different speeds with each controller. The DCC 2-6-6-2 (with sound) runs faster under the basic EZ controller than it does under EZ Command Dynamis controller and, obviously, the loco has the CV's programmed the same for each test.
My test is with both controllers flat out. I do not, however, notice any difference in the chuff rate. The Dynamis shows 126/126 for velocity and the EZ is full clock on the control. I guess the thing to do is measure the voltage at the track but I do not have a dvm for the DCC reading. Has anybody got any theories or ideas as to why this is happening?
I have noticed the same thing, My engines seem to run slower on the dynamis than they did on the EZ command. I have only had the Dynamis for a few days and have not been able to play with it much. Also, I have only ran two seperate engines, I will test some of my other engines this weekend.
The voltage that the decoder feeds to the motor in a DCC on-board locomotive is a percentage of the DCC voltage on the rails. The percentage is established by the throttle setting and does not depend on track voltage. So if the track voltage is higher (as it is with the E-Z Command) then the locomotive will run faster. If the voltage is lower (as it is with the Dynamis) then the locomotive will run slower.
Jim
Jim,
Why is the voltage lower on the Dymus system, and NOT the EZ?? I think it would be the other way around...
The current should be higher on the dynamis which let's you run more locos. Voltage is how fast it will run, a lower voltage makes for better slow speed running.
Quote from: hotrainlover on April 03, 2009, 07:27:26 PM
Jim,
Why is the voltage lower on the Dymus system, and NOT the EZ?? I think it would be the other way around...
Perhaps the Dynamis has a built in voltage regulator to keep the output voltage constant as the input voltage and track load change. I suspect the E-Z Command lacks such a voltage regulator and therefore allows track voltage to drop as the load increases. If this is the case, then perhaps the designer set the voltage a bit higher for light loads (say one locomotive on the tracks) so that the voltage would still be high enough at full load (say four locomotives running at once.) I say this as a sometime electronics designer, not as someone with first hand knowledge of the thought processes that went into the design of the E-Z Command or the Dynamis.
My measurements confirm the findings: Dynamis = 13.3v at approx 6.X KHz, the EZ Command = 16.1V at approx same frequency. I have no idea why Bachmann decided to make the voltage so low on Dynamis and it's going to be tough to find out as this site and the USA customer Support have only just about acknowleged the fact that Dynamis exists. It's time to take the lid off of the Dynamis - Mr Bach man, a schematic would be useful?
db22, Jim, anyone...
If the Dynamis does have an output lower than that of the EZ, and there is no reason for me to doubt db22's measurement, will there be anything lost in the wireless transmission of instructions from the handheld controller to the receiver / powerpak and on to the track?
I can't understand the method to the madness of lowering the voltage of a wireless operations based controller. Then again perhaps I'm not supposed to.
Rick
(http://s5.tinypic.com/mvncyg_th.jpg) (http://i44.tinypic.com/2yv5kzk.jpg)
The communications link from the hand held to the command station is independent of the track voltage. DCC commands from the command station to the decoders could be lost if the track voltage was too low, below 6 volts or so depending on the decoder used. To me, the question is not why the Dynamis is so low but rather why the E-Z Command is so high.
Jim
But, to acheive the same velocity at a lower voltage then I have to draw more current because the horsepower needed to operate at X feet per second is a constant. To do that I would have to change the resistance of the motor and I can't do that so I can only change the voltage and, to my knowledge, I cant do that with either EZ command devices. I say EZ Command because the Dynamis is also called EZ Command and, of course, it is made by the same people - Bachmann. It would therefore stand to reason that the cheaper EZ would be upgraded by numerous clients to Dynamis but the upgrade exposes the lack of compatibility of the 2 products from the same company.
I also think that the Dynamis is a Bachmann branded solution conceived by an independant company and the compatibility issue was never addressed by the persons involved.
A solution would be a calibration adjustment on either or both devices to allow for operational equality between different NMRA compliant cabs or for Bachmann to allow owners access to the schematics so that they could be modified. After all, modifying is what makes this a hobby and not a project. Bob, you and others probably have the necessary expertise to modify these devices for the benefit of numerous people. If Bachmann would assist us then we would not have to reverse engineer from scratch.
I reread the Dynamis User Manual today while drinking my 4:00 coffee and snacking on Ritz crackers a can of smoked oysters. At the end of the book it said to visit the Dynamis website - http://www.dynamisdcc.com - so I did. It's located in the UK
I found the FAQ section to be most informative. A forum there would be nice.
What is the power output?
Answer
Dynamis is supplied with a 2.5amp power supply at 15.5 Volts stabilized to the load being taken
What is the rating of the track power?
The voltage is stabilised at 15.5v ± 5%, with 2.3 amps of power.
Note: This information is dated from March 2007 to March 2008.
Visit www.dynamisdcc.com
Rick -
are you all checking the voltage with a digital or analog meter across the tracks . on the ez track nickel silver .on a fluke digital meter . i show 23.9 v using the ez commander . i got confused in searching and reading other post getting 16v and so on .that's when i stopped asking . when i would run 4 of my trains i showed a voltage drop of about .8 being right at 23v would i be better off checking it with an analog other than the digital . i want to upgrade my controller .and have read in previous post .that some controllers do operate with less track voltage .inturn like you say making your engines run slower... i changed my layout and can't run in both directions like i was . i have also checked the voltage around the layout and the voltage is the same .with no voltage drop .my separate upper 18" rad .is also run off the ez commander as well . i brought power from the terminal railer up to it . thanks mark f
Oh, I'm starting to get a headache from all this electrics theory :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
excuse me . i tested my engines .my sd-40-2 has an amp draw of .15 amps at full speed .70 ton switcher has .05 ,the ft-a has .10 and the sd-40 has .10 . does the ez commander, using euro voltage of 220v is the max amperage 2 amps operating .as with the u.s voltage of 120v with only 1 amp max. on the ez commander .before overloading it . i have often wondered this .
I think we are going to give PD another headache.
First, the power line voltage has nothing to do with the E-Z Command output. Its output is related to its input voltage and its input voltage is the same independent of power line voltage, assuming you are using the proper transformer for your line voltage.
Second, motors are not resistors. While the torque produced is proportional to the current through a motor, the current is NOT proportional to the applied voltage, except in the special case where the current is pure dc and the motor is locked up. Otherwise the current is proportional to the net voltage (the difference between the applied voltage and the back emf of the motor,) the load on the motor (including its own friction,) the duty cycle of the applied voltage (how long it is applied compared to how long it is cut off,) the temperature of the motor (which affects its resistance,) and the frequencies and their distribution in the applied voltage (assuming the applied voltage is other than pure dc.) All of these factors are important in a motor used in one of our model locomotives, whether it is run on DCC or by a dc power pack.
Third, measuring DCC voltage on your tracks is not as straight forward as it might seem. Most mechanical voltmeters measure average ac voltage and convert it to RMS voltage by rescaling the markings on the meter. Most digital voltmeters measure the peak ac voltage and convert it to RMS by playing with the parameters of the analogue to digital conversion. Both require that the waveform be pure sinusoidal to work properly. Neither work properly with the rectangular waves put out by DCC. True RMS voltmeters can read DCC voltages properly as can oscilloscopes but both require interpretation to figure out what the dc voltage applied to the inner workings of a decoder will be. As far as your DCC equipped locomotive is concerned, that last voltage is the only one that matters.
If that doesn't have PD's head throbbing, this question will:
If 12 volts dc pulses with 50% duty cycle are applied to a resistor, what is the RMS voltage across the resistor? What is the average voltage across it? Now make that load a motor. Will its speed correspond to the RMS voltage or to the average voltage?
Oh my aching head. Why why why do yoiu do this to me. I can only take so much and you guys have pushed me to the limit. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( ;D
Bob made a comment earlier about the dynamis ez command name. That is even confusing. Ez command, Which one? When I grew up in Massachusetts not far from a B&M commuter line, I would go to a local store and ask for a coke, they'd ask, what flavor? Maybe its a regional thing?
And Jim, if the power company provides 100 volts instead of 120 volts, won't the ez command have 20% less power? Step down transformers can only provide a proportion of the incoming voltage.
Jim
Your comparison of a resistor to a motor is apples and oranges.
A motor is an inductor not a resistor the reaction to a 50% duty cycle
applied voltage will be entirely different.
Tim Anders
Souderton, PA
Watching people who know much more than I about model trains & electricity diametrically disagree is disconcerting, if not disillusioning. ???
Jim, as you so eloquently stated: "There are 10 kinds of people in this world - those that understand binary and those that don't." ;D
I have to say that I enjoy the give and take, but I've got a question for you all . If I understand the E-Z Command system correctly, it is a low-end DCC system consisting of a one-piece throttle/command station/booster with only limited capabilities and a wall wart power supply. The Dynamis appears to consist of a power supply, an infrared transceiver of some sort that I guess connects to the railroad, and a one piece throttle/command/station booster with maybe most of the capabilities of a Digitrax Zephyr. Since you CANNOT run with more than one command station, why do you care that the two systems have different outputs? I'm really serious. I'm not a potential customer for either system, but I'm really interested in learning about any application that would make the separate track voltages significant. As long as the NMRA warrant appears on the box, I'm reasonably assured that either unit will talk to my decoders. If it won't run my trains, I'm taking it back...simple as that.
Rusty
Rusty
The Dynamis out put is in line with the recommended track voltage of 14v max.
All the major systems use 13.8v max for H0. Digitraxx uses 12v max for N, 13.8
for H0, and 22v for large 0 and G.
The EZ-Command is actually out of spec for H0 and N, at 16v.
This is probably done to get UL and CSA approval. It is sold as a toy.
Tim Anders
Souderton, PA
i have a ? do any of you on this post .work for bachmann . nothing intended . im still trying to learn my sprint htc touch diamond phone. and most of the people in the forum work for sprint and actually are a big help to the newbies . like my hobby shop guy said it dont matter some of us aren't prototypical .i want to be as close as i can get . but times and tribulation .keeps me from it .thats why i did the post of keeping the hobby alive .
My Bachmann 5 amp booster didn't boost my EZ Command HO layout (3 connected ovals = 117') until I switched it from 14 volts to 18 volts, on advice I received in this forum from Jim Banner.
Quote from: Tim on April 10, 2009, 11:01:04 PM
Jim
Your comparison of a resistor to a motor is apples and oranges.
A motor is an inductor not a resistor the reaction to a 50% duty cycle
applied voltage will be entirely different.
Tim Anders
Souderton, PA
Actually, I did not compare a resistor to a motor. All I asked was what the motor would respond to (i.e. what would its speed most closely track,) the RMS voltage or the average voltage. This is a bit of a trick question, so I included an initial question to get you thinking of how the RMS voltage differs from the average voltage in a simple resistive case.
If we are going to split hairs, not only is a motor not a resistance, it also is not an inductance. It is an impedance in series with a voltage source. Normally that impedance is a resistance plus an inductive reactance, but in some special cases, it can be a resistance plus a capacitive reactance. And in one special case, it can be a pure resistance.
PD, you are right on. If the input voltage of your transformer is low, the output voltage will be proportional low as well.
And Rusty, I have both an E-Z Command and Digitrax. I use them to run different railroads. Sometimes it can be disconcerting to have a locomotive run faster on one railroad and slower on another. This is particularly true when you are sub consciously monitoring locomotive response as an indicator of locomotive condition.
Jim
Jim....sorry to derail the thread for a sec.
I'm not sure if you ever got my email about our voltage regulator troubles, but we found a solution. And we didn't even have to go stateside...lol.
http://www.davesmopar.com/prod01.htm (http://www.davesmopar.com/prod01.htm)
We went from 18.7v (with spikes as high as 19.5) on the old mechanical to a proper 13.9v with this unit.
Thanks again
Sid
I have a highly technical solution to all this, one that won't give PD a headache.
There's a small round knob on the EZ Command, sometimes referred to as a "throttle". If EZ Command runs a locomotive too fast, turn the small knob down a bit. :D
One think that I noted is no one has talked about decoders and "their" voltages. DCC sound decoders that SoundTraxx made for drop-in replacements for Atlas, Athern and Life Like diesels have a MAX voltage requirement of 16 volts. They can and will burn out at higher track voltages. The maximum voltage is clearly stated on the spec sheet.
If you have friends that have these engines and they want to run on your railroad, and your track voltage is above the magic number, there is SMALL chance they will be burned out. Not what your friends or you for that matter, want to have happen.
Most DCC systems have some sort of method of setting the track voltage. Failing that, you can devise some method of dropping a volt and half or so using diodes or a regulator.
Just a word of caution from a guy that learned it the hard way... :-\
HO-Ron
Quote from: Yampa Bob on April 14, 2009, 02:13:42 PM
There's a small round knob on the EZ Command, sometimes referred to as a "throttle". If EZ Command runs a locomotive too fast, turn the small knob down a bit. :D
Bob, I must have done something wrong. I had the same problem. Chucked the knob in the lathe and turned it down a bit. Still the same problem. Turned it down a bit more. Same problem. The final time in the lathe, I turned the knob down to nothing. But my trains still go too fast when I turn the throttle up. ;D ;D
Who said English isn't a fun language??
Jim, you need to re-tool your setup.
"Bob, I must have done something wrong. I had the same problem. Chucked the knob in the lathe and turned it down a bit. Still the same problem. Turned it down a bit more. Same problem. The final time in the lathe, I turned the knob down to nothing. But my trains still go too fast when I turn the throttle up. "
Let me help if I can. What brand lathe are you using?' When I worked for TRW we used Warner-Swasey or LeBlond - American made lathes. Are you using an import? Are your OD tools in the turret or tail stock or crossfeed? You want the machine piece to turn clockwise providing the front of it is not facing the machine if using tools mounted from above. Using the crossfeed your OD tool(s) should be at the right height & moving away from you. Machined piece should be rotating counter clockwise 'back' into your tools. Again your part should be facing away from the chuck.
I still have my setup man's book I put together if you need more assistance. I'm only certified on turret lathes, automatics and engine lathes of US manufacture.
luck
OkieRick
HO and N decoders like to live in a 12 volt world, even though they can tolerate 16-18 volts, and are desgned to withstand spikes up to 22 volts.
Higher end DCC command stations, generally are regulated to have an output of 12-14 volts to the track, and at that voltage, your decoders will run cooler, have smoother control, better low speed performance, and your lights will last longer.
Some high end command stations have switchable output voltages for users running Large scale trains, but recommend operating at the lowest setting that provides suitable operations.
Jim
Very funny. :D Guess I could have said "rotate" or "adjust". Actually in railroad terms it would be "set throttle to run 7" or "use the company notch", but I didn't want to sound too "engineerish".
Since you mentioned using a lathe, I have visions of....never mind I promised not to tell. LOL..
Rick, you have to understand Canuck humor. Of course, I don't understand it either. ??? We say UH?, they say EH?
Bob, your pun reminded of what William Bendix used to say in his 1950s TV series, "The Life of Riley": "What a revoltin' development this is!" :D
Bob, all I know about Canada is the water swirls the wrong way if you flush the crapper or watch it go down the drain.
I guess I better go get started on my taxes before the deadline arrives. I'm stumped though, and TurboTax has no input field for all my new wealth. I need to know how to declare the 80% of AIG I recenty acquired. I'll call U.S. Guv'ment tech tomorrow and find out.
Fill your hoppers...
Rick
Quote from: OkieRick on April 16, 2009, 11:18:59 PM
Bob, all I know about Canada is the water swirls the wrong way if you flush the crapper or watch it go down the drain.
You really need to get out more. ::)
Sid
Quote from: WGL on April 16, 2009, 03:15:47 AM
Bob, your pun reminded of what William Bendix used to say in his 1950s TV series, "The Life of Riley": "What a revoltin' development this is!" :D
"Revolting Development" - does that have something to do with recharging batteries in a dark room??
And OlieRick, maybe I should have bought an American lathe. The one I have is from Asia, and you have to stand on the ceiling to operate it. And it doesn't help that all the clocks in my shop are digital (clockwise? counterclockwise? What's all that about, eh??)
"And OlieRick, maybe I should have bought an American lathe. The one I have is from Asia, and you have to stand on the ceiling to operate it. And it doesn't help that all the clocks in my shop are digital (clockwise? counterclockwise? What's all that about, eh??)"[/i]
I imagine you have an Asian lathe for the same reason they started placing them in the shop I worked in - economics, so they said. Little did they know they weren't saving dollars - they were saving some kind of some currency based on the metric system. As if the whole world except the US was metric system based! The ceiling mounted units are ok as long as you get a verticle station machine - not horizontal. Sorry about your digital clocks - that was my poor choice for an analogy. Take heart, you could have metric digital clocks. One last point, "Uh..."
Happy trails to you
Until we meet again.
Happy Trails to you
Keep Smiling until then.
an Okie
So which one are you Roy Rogers or Dale Evans . Did trigger sing?
Don