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Discussion Boards => General Discussion => Topic started by: boomertom on April 28, 2009, 12:15:11 AM

Title: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: boomertom on April 28, 2009, 12:15:11 AM
It appears that Spectrum steam is rapidly becoming sound only.

Case in point the 2-8-0 that was a great little locomotive for a small layout seems to have disappeared unless you get it sound equipped. This is not alltogether bad but becomes pricey for many of us old guys on fixed incomes.

Granted you can still get some nice standard steam that is not sound equipped but these tend to be larger locomotives rather than the small engines common on short line or branches.

Is this a trend that will lead to sound only in the near future?
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on April 28, 2009, 02:28:40 AM
Hi Tom,
I think it has to do with the current state of the economy. Perhaps a company like Bachmann (Kader) can't currently afford to offer models in both sound and non-sound.  During hard times, a company has to maximize profits on fewer sales.  To do this means selling fewer units but at a higher price and (hopefully) better net profit.

When the economy improves, will such a company revert back to offering lesser priced units with fewer features?  Historically the answer is no. Consumers continue to demand more "bells and whistles".  The most common expression is: "If you wanna play, you gotta pay". 

There was a time when a radio or air conditioning was an option in automobiles. Then radios became standard, but you had the option of a CD player. Today most all cars are fully loaded, including GPS navigation and tracking. The economy is controlled by the demands and buying habits of consumers. 

The Spectrum 2-8-0 DCC was possibly Bachmann's biggest seller. What do you do when an item is a long time seller but generates low profit due to increased production cost and decreased sales? You quit making it in favor of perhaps a bigger market. It's often called "planned obsolescence."
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: boomertom on April 28, 2009, 11:00:05 AM
Or you put the non-sound 2-8-0 in a train set with a dc power pack, three passenger cars and track at a suggested retail of $400.00. v. $318.00 for the sound equipped version as a stand alone model.

In a similar  manner, it seems that analog locomotives are becoming dinosaur except for the basic low cost train set lines from Bachmann, Model Power and Lifelike.

If horse racing is the sport of kings, has model railroading become a rich mans hobby ?

Pardon me, but my grape juice was extremely sour today.

Tom
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 28, 2009, 11:38:31 AM
our prices are quite high. You need to do some careful shopping. Many modelers are not aware of price comparisons. Many buy on impulse.

Change is inevitable, struggle is an option.

Rich

Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Johnson Bar Jeff on April 28, 2009, 12:33:44 PM
Quote from: richG on April 28, 2009, 11:38:31 AM
our prices are quite high. You need to do some careful shopping. Many modelers are not aware of price comparisons. Many buy on impulse.

Change is inevitable, struggle is an option.

Rich



Resistance is futile. ...
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 28, 2009, 02:45:52 PM
I heard the same story years ago about brass.

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: jward on April 28, 2009, 03:21:06 PM
it is interesting. when many of the other manufacturers started loading up their locomotives and prices went through the roof, i gave bachmann another look after years of buying other brands exclusively. dcc onboard was a pleasant surprise: a good running dcc equipped locomotive for less than the others were charging for analog......guess what i started buying.....


put another way, if you have a sound equipped locomotive only, at $300, i will only buy one if i REALLY want that locomotive. an impulse buy is not an option at that price. strip it down to analog and sell it for $100, i may buy 5 of them.....
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: trainmaster971 on April 28, 2009, 03:26:50 PM
This brings up the question of the repair of a non sound steam loco should it break while still under warranty.
If the loco is not repairable and needs to be replaced what will the options be?
Will it be replaced with the sound equipped version? If so will there be a fee required even though it is still under the one year warranty?.  Will they offer whatever leftover that they may still have that is not sound equipped?
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 28, 2009, 05:45:09 PM
I just took a quick look at Micro Mark. A few steamers around $222.00 for DCC sound, some around $160.00 with sound, some DCC on board, no sound under $100.00.

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: James Thomas on April 28, 2009, 06:49:17 PM
Yet, we can't get the new locomotives in On30 WITH sound.

-JRT
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 28, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Quote from: James Thomas on April 28, 2009, 06:49:17 PM
Yet, we can't get the new locomotives in On30 WITH sound.

-JRT

I guess the below link is false advertising or maybe not in stock.

http://www.micromark.com/bachmann-on30-locomotives-and-powered-equipment.html

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: rogertra on April 28, 2009, 07:12:02 PM
All sound STILL sounds like a 1950s transistor radio, no matter what anyone tries to tell me. 

I hear what I hear, not what I want to hear!

And what I hear is tinny and nothing like a real loco sounds.  It's even worst for diesel sound.

I say this fascination with sound  is akin to the first "talkies".  People were and are blown away by the fact that we can now get sound into such a small model, just like they were when they first heard talking movies.

Now compare the movie sound of not just the 1930s movies but even the movies made in the 1960s and 70s to what we hear these days.  AFAIC, model sound is only just in the 1930s mode and sounds just like that 1950s transistor radio.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 28, 2009, 07:16:47 PM
I hope you feel better after that rant. You will get over it.

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: hotrainlover on April 28, 2009, 09:37:49 PM
I love my sound engines.  If I do not want sound, I just F8 out...
No more sound  :)
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Pacific Northern on April 28, 2009, 10:00:30 PM
Quote from: trainmaster971 on April 28, 2009, 03:26:50 PM
This brings up the question of the repair of a non sound steam loco should it break while still under warranty.
If the loco is not repairable and needs to be replaced what will the options be?
Will it be replaced with the sound equipped version? If so will there be a fee required even though it is still under the one year warranty?.  Will they offer whatever leftover that they may still have that is not sound equipped?

I know that there will be an extra charge if you are returning a non-sound engine for repair/replacement and the item is no longer in production. Hopefully the members of this site will let us know what Bachmann is charging.

Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Paul M. on April 28, 2009, 10:10:25 PM
Yes, I agree. Models without DCC sound are better in my book, though I realize the merits of locos with sound...

Case in point: Athearn's sound-equipped Genesis F7's. A couple years ago, they offered them in an A/B set w/sound lettered for the T&P. However, the $300 price tag was (and still is) way too much for my budget. Guess what? I went without, and later bought some analog Proto 2000 F-units at Trainworld for $30 each, and lettered them using discontinued Champ decals I found on eBay.

I think manufacturers should realize that not everyone wants / can afford the high-end stuff, and, especially in a bum economy, should continue to make the more inexpensive, tried and true products.

Fine, one more case in point:
I wish Athearn would continue to manufacture more of its Blue-Box kits. While techinically they do still make them, they're much harder to find, and less are manufactured. I refuse to pay $13 for an RTR car, when I could easily make an identical car from the once standard $6 kit.
Now, when need rolling stock, I wait and go to a swap meet and get Athearn cars for less than $5 each.

I don't mean to pick on Athearn, but its true of other manufacturers, too.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: rogertra on April 29, 2009, 12:03:14 AM
Quote from: richG on April 28, 2009, 07:16:47 PM
I hope you feel better after that rant. You will get over it.

Rich

However Rich, the unarguable fact is, that I'm correct.  Even the "best" sound system sounds like a 1950s transistor radio.  :-)
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on April 29, 2009, 12:15:58 AM
The 2009 catalog doesn't list the Connie non-sound, but they are still shown on this site.

By the way, I know of two major distributors for model trains in the U.S., Walthers and Horizon Hobby.  Who is the U.S. (North American) distributor for Bachmann trains?

Who knows, there may still be hundreds of Connies in a warehouse somewhere.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: moosemose on April 29, 2009, 01:09:59 AM
"The Cost of Doing Business" doesn't hold water as they already have all the "Tooling", No R&D costs & at this point in time, I think they have just about all the features established that anyone could want, so what else are they up against ???   John
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Jim Banner on April 29, 2009, 01:16:14 AM
Quote from: richG on April 28, 2009, 06:54:35 PM

I guess the below link is false advertising or maybe not in stock.

http://www.micromark.com/bachmann-on30-locomotives-and-powered-equipment.html

Rich

Rich, do you think it's possible that Micro Mark installed the DCC and sound (or had it installed for them)??

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am another one who is underwhelmed by small scale sound but Soundtraxx's Surroundtraxx may be the answer.   Big bass sound at half a dozen places under the layout, following the trains as they move around, and the small squeeky sounds directly from the locomotives.  Our ears cannot pinpoint the origin of low sounds so six sources should be good for all but the largest layouts.  Our ears are best at pinpointing the high frequency sounds, and our brains can easily be fooled about the origin of mid range sounds once they been pointed at an apparent source by both the high sounds and the visual images.  This approach requires a lot of expensive hardware and I have the nagging feeling that it still may not solve the problem of associating the full bodied sound with a small locomotive.

Jim
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 29, 2009, 11:27:49 AM
Hi Jim

To the best of my knowledge, Bachmann has the decoders and speakers installed "somewhere" and sell to different on line shops.
Another company is coming out with HO scale Tsunami decoder equipped locos. Cannot say here who it is.

Tony's Trains does their own installs from what I can see. I only see there reps at the Big E show once a year.

Tony's Trains offers Bachmann "loco only" which I figure is DCC ready, power decoder only, LC sound decoder and premium sound decoder. I do not know what the "premium" decoder is. They have pretty good prices.

As far as sound quality goes, I learned many years ago that model railroading is only an analogy of the real thing and all analogies break down somewhere. Think code 100 rail and huge couplers, very tight curves. In our minds, it look prototypical. It is only a hobby, think childern of all ages, playing with trains.

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Kevin Strong on April 29, 2009, 12:12:24 PM
Sound quality is an interesting thing. I would disagree that the sounds from our locos sound unrealistic. Yes, the sound quality coming from a 1/2" speaker in the tender of an N-scale loco sounds a bit thin. Physics is funny that way, and I'm fairly certain a BOSE wave tender is years off. (It would be a heckuva challenge for 'em, though!) However, Hook any top-end sound system (Phoenix, QSI, etc.) up to a good amp and speakers, and you'll get ground-shaking sound out of them. Case in point, the Colorado Railroad Museum has a diesel "simulator" in one of their locos that's hooked up to a Phoenix (I believe) sound system. That hummer sounds real. Heck, I used a cheap MRC sound control for a stage production once, and it had quite the presence in the theatre.

Now, we can't fit 12" subwoofers in even our 1:20 models, let alone HO or N scale, so there is some degree of compromise. But is it really compromise?

Consider how we view our trains. When we operate our trains, we typically view them from two, three or more feet away. In large scale, you're typically 5, 6 up to 20 to 30 or more feet away. Now, let's scale that. If you're 4' away from an HO scale train, you're nearly 350' away. Stand 350' away from the prototype, and it's going to sound a lot different than it would sound if you were 10' away from it. Yet, the common perception for many modelers is that even from a scale 1000' away, we need to hear the sounds as if we're on board. Change that paradigm, and sound systems--even in N scale--take on a very realistic tone. Even a tiny speaker (such as those in our earbuds) sound very full-bodied when close enough to our ears.

I'm not a fan of blarlingly loud sound systems. I want to hear the train approaching as it comes into view. I want to hear it fade away after it passes. As such, I turn the volume down as low as it can possibly go and still be audible. Maybe I lose some of the subtle nuances, but I can't remember the last time I heard the fireman shoveling the coal when I was standing 1000' away. That's fine with me.

Sure, if you want your trains to always sound as if you were riding in the locomotive, even the best sound systems and speakers come up short. To me, that's as unrealistic as not having sound in the first place. If we let the sound ebb and flow as it travels, let it be distant and thin when away from us, vibrant when closer in, then I think you get a much more rewarding experience.

Later,

K
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: James Thomas on April 29, 2009, 12:23:16 PM
Rich,

The locos listed with sound are the old locos that have been out for a while.  It's the NEW locos:  both 4-4-0's, the upcoming 4-6-0, the rail bus, that are not listed with sound.  The first 4-4-0 has been around for over a year -- still no sound.

Just doesn't seem consistant.  Seems as though sound has been dropped in On30, and non-sound has been dropped in HO.

-JRT
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 29, 2009, 01:09:45 PM
The first 4-4-0s with no sound came ready for sound. I bought the first one. They now come with sound.  Most of the sound locos in on line shops are the latest releases of sound and no sound.
If it says Tsunmai technology, it is fairly recent.

Bachmann is not known to keep up with their on line catalogs.

The ebay shops will no doubt have older stock, though a year now a days can be considered old stork.

Please go and click on the Micro Mark link I provided earlier and read All the entries.

There are a number of on line shops who sell Spectrums and the stock can change almost daily.

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: boomertom on April 29, 2009, 03:20:33 PM
Quote from: richG on April 29, 2009, 11:27:49 AM
Hi Jim

To the best of my knowledge, Bachmann has the decoders and speakers installed "somewhere" and sell to different on line shops.
Another company is coming out with HO scale Tsunami decoder equipped locos. Cannot say here who it is.

In my e-mail today, this other company seems to be none other than Athearn - interesting as they already have had sound equipped locomotives for several years. Supposedly it will also cover some Roundhouse locos.

As a side note, several years ago when I was first debating DCC it was suggested to me that for a small layout that sound could become overpowering hence somewhat distracting.

Tom
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: James Thomas on April 29, 2009, 03:32:32 PM
Rich,

I guess I'm either stupid or blind -- I see no 4-4-0 listed at Micro-Mark with sound.  I have asked the Bach Man before about sound and his reply was that there was no sound at this time in the 4-4-0 (first version.)

Please prove me wrong so I can buy one.

-JRT
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 29, 2009, 05:22:32 PM
http://www.micromark.com/bachmann-ho-scale.html

Click on the above link and scroll all the way down. The two bottom ones are 4-4-0.

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 29, 2009, 05:42:50 PM
Hi boomertom

Yes, sound can be distracting if too loud. Anyone figure out 1/87th sound level for HO scale?
Some modelers using sound are like kids with their first train set. Maximum speed!!!

On my own layout, I use near minimum sound.

I was in a railroad  yard one time with two steam locomotives operating. It can get quite loud. Prototype yards must have been very noisy as a lot of yards could have many locomotives operating, coming in, leaving, shunting rolling stock, etc. I have seen photos of yards with maybe a couple dozen steamers under steam.

Rich

Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Atlantic Central on April 29, 2009, 08:44:59 PM
Well, just my opinion, but sound in the small scales is unrealistic for a number of reasons, no matter how low you turn it down. Poor sound quality, poor dynamic range just to start.

I'm glad I have most all the locomotives I need or want since I don't want DCC or sound.

But, Bachmann's current trend excepted, Proto, Atlas, Athearn, Intermountain and others show no signs of discontinuing the production of non sound DC locomotives.

These manufacturers seem to realize they can kill two birds with one stone. Or maybe it is four birds with two stones. By offering both DCC/sound and DC/no sound versions that are DCC ready, they allow those who want out of the box DCC and/or sound to pay the high price. While allowing everyone else to tailor the product to their own needs.

Some will add basic decoders, some will add their favorite high end sound decoder, others will run them DC.

All market needs met!

Bachmann has provided DCC with no sound at such a low price it is like a DC version, especially with the "jumpers" for removing the decoder (that's what I do).

But I buy BLI Blue Line stuff and take out the sound too.

Sheldon
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: adari on April 29, 2009, 09:06:06 PM
Lately ive been buying only sound equipped engines but i still love the ones without sound. If i had to to get a engine ive always wanted  would get in dcc (or dc). my first engine had no sound.I didnt even know that sound equipped engines existed until 07. well in o scale yes
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Pacific Northern on April 29, 2009, 11:19:25 PM
Quote from: Yampa Bob on April 29, 2009, 12:15:58 AM
The 2009 catalog doesn't list the Connie non-sound, but they are still shown on this site.

By the way, I know of two major distributors for model trains in the U.S., Walthers and Horizon Hobby.  Who is the U.S. (North American) distributor for Bachmann trains?

Who knows, there may still be hundreds of Connies in a warehouse somewhere.


The Walthers site indicates that the non sound Spectrum Connie is discontinued.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 29, 2009, 11:39:57 PM
Tony's Trains indicates the DCC on board non sound Connie is available for $107.00.

Do not know if their site is accurate.
Tony's has quite a selection of Spectrum's with quite a few options. i have never ordered from Tony's but I know they are a reputable dealer.

The 4-4-0 with DCC on board non sound is $149.00.

http://www.tonystrains.com/locomotive/bachmann.htm

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: James Thomas on April 30, 2009, 08:18:22 AM
Rich,

There's the problem.  I'm talking On30; the ad is for HO.

JRT
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 30, 2009, 10:41:41 AM
Quote from: James Thomas on April 30, 2009, 08:18:22 AM
Rich,

There's the problem.  I'm talking On30; the ad is for HO.

JRT

Look at this link and read carefully.

http://www.micromark.com/bachmann-on30-locomotives-and-powered-equipment.html

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: James Thomas on April 30, 2009, 05:42:10 PM
Last time that I will comment.  There are no On30 4-4-0's listed in that ad with SOUND.

-JRT
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: richG on April 30, 2009, 06:12:04 PM
Quote from: James Thomas on April 30, 2009, 05:42:10 PM
Last time that I will comment.  There are no On30 4-4-0's listed in that ad with SOUND.

-JRT

Suite yourself but there are Forneys and Shays with sound. You cannot have everything. Sometimes you have to do the work yourself. Call it a learning experience.

Rich
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: boomertom on April 30, 2009, 10:41:30 PM

Sound does add another dimension and I do admit that I have had fun operating friends sound equipped consolidations and to be honest would love to have one.

Since I began this thread, Athearn has announce rd that it will begin adding Tsunami sound to its HO and N lines as well as the Roundhouse products
This should mean an expansion of sound equipped steam as well as diesels.

For me the problem remains that of affordability.

Tom
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on April 30, 2009, 11:51:23 PM
Check this out, off topic but interesting.

http://www.soundtraxx.com/dsd/tsunami/index.php?p=1000gn.php
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: boomertom on May 01, 2009, 08:57:48 PM
Bob,

Not too far off topic in my opinion as it seems that sound is becoming more and more common, much like dcc has-. Which in theory should result in a lower inventory carrying cost for the various manufactures.

Unfortunately, I don't see a cost savings in the manufacturers stocking a single model filtering down to the consumer level.


Tom
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: OkieRick on May 01, 2009, 09:00:48 PM
Check this out, off topic but interesting.[/i]


I'll follow you off topic a bit farther Bob.  The two links you had posted briefly indicates for $84.00 + s/h + speaker enclosure you could have DCC and Sound for an Athearn diesel.

Do you see any reason why it won't work with any other mfgr's diesels if you can make it fit?  I don't mean to include every diesel like old Tycos or $14.99 Model Powers (and others) but how about most any diesel with a circuit board in it?


...jus wunnerin...
Rick
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on May 01, 2009, 10:14:14 PM
I couldn't decide which link made the better point. My first thought was, "wow, here's a neat sound board for only $80", and like you said, this might work for any diesel, including Bachmann DC models.

I also thought, "why is the board listed as specific for Athearn when the prime movers are the same as the standard TSU-1000?" Then I reviewed the current listings at Caboose Hobbies and got a possible answer;  Athearn has over 500 diesel models including current, preorder and future releases, and most are DCC ready.

So...what's the point?  Someone recently wrote "change is inevitable, struggling is optional", and "resistance is futile". Therefore I offer an optional title for this thread:

"The demise of steam"  Face the facts, our beloved "Connie" is mostly history, and it possibly represented 50% of all steam model sales over the last 10 years. 

I will make a wild guess that diesel is outselling steam by at least 3 to 1. We have a few Connies and Roundhouse steamers, but have no plans for any more steam purchases. I can't "reminisce" about steamers as other members do, since I have no recollection of them.

Our roster is now 75% diesel, and by attrition may grow to 90% in a year or two.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: boomertom on May 02, 2009, 12:55:33 AM
Having been born in 1945 and growing up on the mainline of the Chesapeake & Ohio - one of the major coal roads and hence a hold out for steampower and  living 50 miles from Roanoke and the Norfolk and Western, the last operator of steam power, my sense of nostalgia is strong.

Nevertheless Bob, I do see your point relative to diesels. For many of us the diesels have been the most reliable locomotives we own. While my pre Spectrum Bachmann 2-8-0 and 2-8-2 looked good as did an N&W Y6b from AHM, they were not the best performers.

I will not chastise those who turn their collective noses up at any " infernal combustion" locomotive nor will I praise the steam and nothing but steam hobbyist.

With that thought in mind, maybe I have been incorrect in my feelings that steam sound is over priced, maybe that is a part of the normal cost for such models.

Tom
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Jim Banner on May 02, 2009, 01:21:06 AM
Has anyone  tried the Digitrax Sound Bug?  Less than $50 MSRP and comes with a speaker.

Jim
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Cooped on May 02, 2009, 03:17:48 PM
Quote from: Yampa Bob on May 01, 2009, 10:14:14 PM
I couldn't decide which link made the better point. My first thought was, "wow, here's a neat sound board for only $80", and like you said, this might work for any diesel, including Bachmann DC models.

I also thought, "why is the board listed as specific for Athearn when the prime movers are the same as the standard TSU-1000?" Then I reviewed the current listings at Caboose Hobbies and got a possible answer;  Athearn has over 500 diesel models including current, preorder and future releases, and most are DCC ready.

So...what's the point?  Someone recently wrote "change is inevitable, struggling is optional", and "resistance is futile". Therefore I offer an optional title for this thread:

"The demise of steam"  Face the facts, our beloved "Connie" is mostly history, and it possibly represented 50% of all steam model sales over the last 10 years. 

I will make a wild guess that diesel is outselling steam by at least 3 to 1. We have a few Connies and Roundhouse steamers, but have no plans for any more steam purchases. I can't "reminisce" about steamers as other members do, since I have no recollection of them.

Our roster is now 75% diesel, and by attrition may grow to 90% in a year or two.


The idea of 'the demise of steam' saddens me. Like Bob I have no recollection of the steam era to reminisce about, I'm only 35. What I do have though are lots of memories of playing with my Grandfathers collection of OO Hornby (I grew up in England) steam trains and numerous visits to preserved railways. My Grandfather basically embedded steam into me, and now I'm doing it with my son. My fondest memory was a day trip with my grandparents where we rode a 'steam special' from London to Scotland and back again being pulled by the A4 class 'Sir Nigel Gresley' (those of you unfamiliar with British steam are more likely to recognize it's sister 'Mallard'). Anyway, take a trip to any preserved railroad and people want to ride steam. I think (hope) modelling steam will be alive as long as the preserved railroads keep it so.

As for sound, personal preference, I like non-sound. Certainly helps on the budget also! I hope the non-sound versions are not discontinued, it would certainly reduce the number of locos I could buy if it was.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Pacific Northern on May 02, 2009, 03:26:26 PM
Quote from: Yampa Bob on May 01, 2009, 10:14:14 PM


I will make a wild guess that diesel is outselling steam by at least 3 to 1. We have a few Connies and Roundhouse steamers, but have no plans for any more steam purchases. I can't "reminisce" about steamers as other members do, since I have no recollection of them.



It would be most interesting to know the numbers, I would suggest that diesel is outselling steam by at least 8 to 1.

As you mentioned the large number of diesels that Athearn is producing note that Walthers ratio between steam and diesel.

The age  of the modelers of course is the deciding factor.  The local model railroad club as very few steam engines in relation to to diesel engines. Not that many of us who can remember steam engines vividly if at all.  I am lucky that I am Canadian as steam did survive a few more years.

Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on May 02, 2009, 05:10:29 PM
Another factor is the price of steam locomotives compared to diesel.  In the Bachmann line, you can buy a very nice DCC equipped standard diesel for about $45. 

In my case there is still another factor. My wife runs our trains more than I do, I spend more time working on the layout, in the shop with projects, or reading the forum.  If she had her way, we wouldn't have any steam locomotives.

Back on topic; reviewing the 2009 Bachmann catalog, the number of non-sound DCC steam locomotives is pretty slim pickings. I have four Connies and a Richmond, new in the boxes, think I'll just keep them for a while. I don't expect to make a big profit on them, but will surely get back what I paid for them.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: CNE Runner on May 04, 2009, 10:25:12 PM
I decided to modify my earlier post as it really didn't fit the thread as it is being constructed. It comes as no surprise that diesel outsells steam. We tend to feel comfortable with those environmental attributes which we have experienced and feel a connection to. Most of the folks, buying for (or entering) the hobby today have little - or no - experience with steam locomotives. A fan trip on a steam excursion railroad really isn't much in the way of life experience. I was born at steam's end (1945) and can only vaguely remember steam power. I guess I was 5 years old when my father got me a ride on a NH steamer in Hopewell Junction, NY. Just about all the trains I have seen in my life, however, were pulled by diesel locomotives.

So why did I model an obscure branchline in 1889 (not too many diesels around then)? My alter ego yearns for a simpler time with simpler machines...you can't get much simpler than a 4-4-0. My road, in model railroading, is atypical...not typical.
Ray
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Atlantic Central on May 06, 2009, 08:13:21 AM
Bob,

Diesels are less expensive per unit, BUT, on all but the smallest layouts they are similar in price "per train".

Trains, prototype and model, pulled by steam locomotives, are typically pulled by only one or two locomotives. A similar length train is likely to be pulled by at least two, and more often, 3-4 diesel units.

So for those of us with larger layouts, pulling longer trains, and trying to simulate prototype practice to a higher degree, the "cost" of what is pulling the "average" train is similar, steam or diesel.

Example: Two BLI Mikado's (on sale right now, two for $250.00) or an ABA lash up of the new Proto 2000 F7's (about $300.00 without sound or DCC).

The diesels are actually more expensive.

And, comparing Bachmann standard line diesels to Spectrum or other highly detailed steam locos is hardly apples to apples. I know the new standard line locos run very nice, but for me, most of them are not up to my detail standards. Diesels with detail equal to Spectrum steam cost more like the example I sited above.

As to who is buying how much of what, well yes I would say that more diesels are being sold, for many/all of the reasons mentioned, BUT, more different diesels are made, so the per model sales (Bachmann 2-8-0 vs Genesis F7 for example) are most likely similar.

Then there is the issue of collectors vs operators that effects sales. Operators like myself only buy what fits their operational goals. I have over 100 locomotives, but I don't own a lot of what is out there because it does not fit my railroad. None of these: GS4, UP FEF, Big boy, Challenger, N&W Class J, PRR anythings, etc. Yet the industry keeps doing these locos over and over.

The manufacturers could get more of my money by making stuff that has not been done yet and offering it without sound and DCC.

Sheldon
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on May 06, 2009, 04:25:22 PM
I understand your rationale, but you are basing it on your standards for detail and quality. The average starting modeler is looking for the "most bang for the buck" for a 4 X 8 layout. Also, most are not concerned about being "prototypical".

Therefore comparing a predominantly typical small layout to a large layout is also not apples to apples. The "average" train on my layout consists of only 10 to 15 cars.

For comparison, let's keep it within the Bachmann line and DCC equipped. The least expensive DCC equipped non-sound steam lists for $235 each. (I excluded the new saddle tank switcher).

Bachmann GP40 DCC equipped lists for $69. I have 4 of them, they run great and are detailed enough to suit me.

Of course, you can buy a strandard line Bachmann steamer with DCC but only as a combo with EZ Command. (actually a good deal for a starter system)

The demise of the Spectrum 2-8-0 leaves a huge gap in steam. We will never know what prompted the decision to drop it from the line. It doesn't really concern me, as I expect to phase out all steam by the end of the year anyway.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: WGL on May 07, 2009, 02:24:21 AM
 TheFavoriteSpot, a "factory authorized dealer," sells the Spectrum DCC 2-10-2 for a BuyItNow price of $85 & Bachmann DCC 4-8-4s for a BuyItNow price of $95.  That's about twice what one can buy a Spectrum SD45 for NIB.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: ebtbob on May 07, 2009, 08:10:05 AM
Good Morning All,

       Again,   another very interesting thread.    And guess what.....you are all right and wrong at the same time!!    Your individual choice of DC vs DCC,  sound vs non sound,  diesel vs steam are all a personal choices.   Not one of us here can say anyone is truely wrong.   
       We buy what we can afford.   If not,  we go without.   I have been without an On30 EBT engine for as long as I have been in On30.  By the time one may hit the market I will probably be retired and on a fixed income.
        DC vs DCC.....again,  matter of choice.    I got into this hobby back in the 1950s so that means I was dc for more than 40 years,  but now that I have dcc in my life,  I could never,  ever go back.   Same goes for sound.
        As for steam vs diesel,   again,  since as far back as I can remember,  there has always been a greater choice of diesels over steam even in the heyday of Bowser,  Varney,  and Manuta.  Athearn's history with steam is checkered at best.   Their first major attempts including a 4-6-2 and a small switcher,  cannot remember the wheel arrangement, and were quite shortlived.   Their current trys are also a bit checkered what with splitting gears,  poor weight distribution,  etc.
         Sound vs non sound.   Roger.....for you,  your opinion is correct.   For anyone born after the 1950s,   your anology falls short.   But I recognize your right to your opinion.   I feel just the oposite,   I love my sound engines and the newer sound units coming from QSI and the Tsunmai boards are great.........to those of us who love sound equipped engines.
        My young friend Paul mentioned the fact that Athearn blue box kits are basically no longer existant,  being produced at extremely low amounts.    Well,   there are reasons for the change to ready to run cars and I suspect that the experts in marketing have done enough research to show that the ready to run cars at $15 and up bring them the most profit.   BTW....I work partime in a train store in the Philadelphia area and we get next to no requests for blue box kits.   The few we do get in sit for long periods of time on the shelves,  bringing in no money to the store.
       Bottom line here is simple......this hobby is for fun.   Get your fun from whatever your pocketbook and attitude will allow,   but no one should ever feel the need to tell another modeler they are wrong just because they do not agree with your standards.   
       As Mr. B always says,   "Have fun!"

Respectfully,

Bob
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Yampa Bob on May 07, 2009, 11:42:36 AM
As Sheldon told me when I first joined the forum, "There is no right way, and it is impossible to do it wrong".   

I seldom have an opinion on anything, I prefer to think of it as "preferences".  While I was planning my layout, members gave me many "reasons" why I should not use Code 100.  Guess what, I have Code 100.

I started out with steam, but since my eyesight failed, I can no longer handle the higher maintenance.  Diesels are much easier for me, just throw them on the track and run. In retrospect, I would have probably been wise to choose On30, but I like the selection in HO, and our space is limited.

I love the sound in my AC4400....for about 10 minutes, then it starts to get on my nerves, (and my wife's, who is trying to watch TV in the adjoining room). The neighbor's kids think it's great when they stop by to run the trains.

Let's hope we will always have choices.
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Jim Banner on May 07, 2009, 01:34:45 PM
When running trains for the public, as at train shows, the requests are about equally split between steam and diesel, except for the younger set - they ALL want to see Thomas run.

With that in mind, I like to run both diesel and steam on my garden layout, particularly when I am running it for visitors.  But my indoor H0, set in 1961, is mostly diesel with the occasional steam excursion.  And the turn of the century ON30 that I am presently working on will be all steam.

I guess the bottom line is that I never met a train I didn't like.

Jim
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Atlantic Central on May 07, 2009, 04:54:52 PM
Quote from: ebtbob on May 07, 2009, 08:10:05 AM
Good Morning All,

       Again,   another very interesting thread.    And guess what.....you are all right and wrong at the same time!!    Your individual choice of DC vs DCC,  sound vs non sound,  diesel vs steam are all a personal choices.   Not one of us here can say anyone is truely wrong.   
       We buy what we can afford.   If not,  we go without...................


         Sound vs non sound.   Roger.....for you,  your opinion is correct.   For anyone born after the 1950s,   your anology falls short.   But I recognize your right to your opinion.   I feel just the oposite,   I love my sound engines and the newer sound units coming from QSI and the Tsunmai boards are great.........to those of us who love sound equipped engines.
       

Bob, good points and I agree we all find what we like and enjoy the hobby in our own way, as it should be.

I do however have a comment and a question based on your remarks above.

Comment - I can afford DCC and sound, but I don't like either one. It has nothing to do with the money. If I bought the $300 million winning ticket tonight, I would not have DCC or onboard sound in HO.

For me, for my desired operational goals and needs, DCC is too heavy into the experiance of "being the Engineer" and lacks fundimental elements of being the "dispatcher". I know those things can be added to DCC, but if the intense "Engineer" experiance of DCC is not wanted/needed, why spend the money or more importantly why install decoders?

That is not to say these things arn't great for others, but I have my personal reasons for not liking how they impact my hobby.

Question - What does age have to do with liking or not liking onboard sound in HO scale? Other than maybe we have raised several generations of children who do not even know what Hi Fidelity is and therefor wouldn't know good sound reproduction if they heard it. If that is the case, I am correct in not "lowering" my standards just because everyone else has.

I think sound is great in the larger scales, even in On30 the improvement in sound quality is significant. But in HO or N scale to my Hi Fi trained ears (years of building, designing and testing Hi Fi speakers), onboard sound from 1" speakers is like Roger says "like a 1950's transistor radio".

Again for those who enjoy it fine, and if I was in a larger scale I would have it for sure, but not in HO. There are numerious issues of scale perspective, perceived distance from the train, sound quality, bass response, dynamic range and more that kill any supposed illusion of realism for myself, Roger and others.

Anyway, keep having fun, thats the main thing.

Sheldon



Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: ebtbob on May 07, 2009, 06:00:17 PM
Sheldon,

       Actually,  age has nothing to do with liking or disliking sound.   The reference I made,  indirectly I believe,  was to Rogers analogy of sound being like a bad transitor radio.   Anyone born after the 1950s would probably not be able to appreciate the comparison,  and I have to admit,  being 60 years old,  the only thing I remember about the early transistor radios was that I liked the idea of having a radio I could carry with me and not be tethered to a wall outlet.   I know of no one my age,  back then that was evaluating the quality of the sound.
        As far as the issue of dcc or not,  you are absolutely correct about your preferrence to run without.   Good,   enjoy your railroad the way it is because that is your source of fun.   DCC is not for everyone and so be it.  Again,  I will say what I have said in the past.   Now that I am more than 5 years into DCC ops,   I could never go back to DC ops.    One reason being my like of the sound engines.    They are easier to use,  without special control boxes to get all the available sounds.   It has simplified my wiring,  and best of all,   it has put the "little boy FUN"   back into the operation of my railroad.
        Sheldon,  I have always enjoyed your contributions to this site and look forward to more in the future.

Bob

Bob
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: boomertom on May 07, 2009, 08:25:35 PM
Sheldon and Bob ( and anyone else to whom this may apply),

Perhaps our Friend Yampa Bob and his two rules define it best.

Thankfully there is no right way or wrong way and mos of all NO my way.

I only have a very limited experience with sound in HO steam with equipment owned by others which I have been fortunate enough to operate- a couple Spectrum 2-8-0 and a Reading T-1. These were equipped with Tsunami and Loksound if I am not mistaken and were fun to operate.

At the same time, I enjoy running my GP-40 just as much and don;t miss the sound effects.

Back in the day, my first trains were Lionel 0-27 with whistle and smoke and diesels with horns so sound has been present in my model railroading life for almost 60 years now. What goes around does indeed come around and I would not be surprised to discover if an economic analysis was done that those Lionel trains make today's sound equipped locomotives seem like bargains.

Tom
Title: Re: The demise of non sound steam
Post by: Atlantic Central on May 08, 2009, 08:30:04 AM
Bob,

Thanks, now that makes sense. I guess I was different, I worked all summer at the local hobby shop to save enough to buy my first Hi Fi turntable that wouldn't distroy the records I was buying. I still have those records now 40 years later and they sound great.

Never even owned one of the squawky radios - I used to ask the other kids why they listened to that?

As I have said before, if you want sound, DCC is a no brainer for a number of reasons. DC locos with sound have very poor throttle response and the control of the sound features is beyond awkward, even with the special boxes. And the MRC black box requires decoders in all locos so thats a non starter too in by mind.

As you may know, I use Aristo Craft wireless DC throttles, and my layout wiring is somewhat complex to make what the operators do easy. But I prefer the dispatcher centered operational concept of MZL and similar control schemes and I have signaling that is intergrated into the controls.

If I was building a different type of layout, or in a different scale, I may well consider DCC, but with over 100 locos without decoders and no interest in sound, I can reach my goals easier and at a lower cost with DC and the Aristo Throttle. Which by the way provide slow speed performance equal to DCC and excelent constant lighting effects because it uses 12 volt pluse width modulation.

If your ever down here in the Maryland area, let me know. I get you a viewing of the one complete operating layout using my control system with the Aristo throttles.

As always, nice to hear from you as well.

Sheldon