I have looked threw alot of Model Railroad Magazines . And have counted about 30 different scale Layouts , that have made it , to get an article wrote about them . I counted only 11 , that only had the lines strung on the Telephone Polls . To Me , this isn't a completed layout and shouldn't be given the glory of making to a magazines . I know it is a tough task to do this . But isn't that a part of Modeling . Or is that something we can over look in this hobby and is acceptable ....
Telephone poles have been written about often - but maybe not recently. The problem is the material used for the wires. Depending on scale even the finest wire or string looks terribly oversized. Plus you really need a lot more poles than most people.
They can be an interesting addition to any layout. To properly do them with insulators and all the other devices found on them takes a lot of research and the time spent to duplicate them may be better spent on something else.
I'm sure other users of this board will be able to give you detailed inforamtion.
The subject of correctly modeling telephone poles (not polls...which are something else entirely), has come up from time to time in the hobby. The basic consensus is that a scene seems to be missing "something" if telephone/telegraph poles are not strung. Without getting into all the nuances, there are a couple of choices for the modeler: one of the manufacturers makes poles that are already strung (sorry, I don't remember which one...perhaps someone in the forum can help me out there), or you can get very fine, stretchable line (in various colors) from Berkshire Junction. Their product is called EZ Line and comes in various thicknesses as well as colors. Their website is http://www.berkshirejunction.com/ (http://www.berkshirejunction.com/) and their service is wonderful. I was going to use this product as reins for my various horses and wagons (I model in the later 1800s). Unfortunately the product has too much "curl" to be of use in that regard.
Regards,
Ray
I am of the school of thought that says if you put up the poles correctly, the mind will supply the wires.
No physical wires means nothing to catch a sleeve button on and nothing to pull down a whole layout's worth of poles and wires in one fell swoop.
I have been waiting for thirty years for someone to comment on my lack of wires. I have an answer ready - "the spiders I hired as linemen are out on strike" - but sadly, have never had the chance to use it.
Quote from: Jim Banner on May 19, 2009, 11:15:09 AM
I am of the school of thought that says if you put up the poles correctly, the mind will supply the wires.
Sage words. My school of thought, too.
Quote from: Woody Elmore on May 19, 2009, 10:01:45 AM
Telephone poles have been written about often - but maybe not recently. The problem is the material used for the wires. Depending on scale even the finest wire or string looks terribly oversized. Plus you really need a lot more poles than most people.
You could try substituting some Lithuanians. ...
Ba-da-bing!
Sorry my fingers get to going before my brain does . My gf was doing more scenery , and the question was brought to my attention . As she was wanting to string the "Poles" . And what was the best way to go about it . She and I were wondering why some are and some aren't strung .Thanks for the links and the post .
Being a retired electrical designer who often designed pole line systems, I know more than the average person about what would be "right" or "wrong". I have seen very effective modeling done both ways, with actual strung poles and "imaginary" lines. The trick is understanding where and how they should be positioned, with or without wires actually strung.
The fact is we seldom notice the wires themselves in real life, it is the poles we have encounters with, on sidewalks, while cutting lawns, driving down narrow rural lanes, etc. So Jim is right, the wires, while they may add that extra level of detail, don't need to be there for the effect to work.
And, as one more point of correctness, they are only "telephone" poles if they carry excusively telephone wires. The correct general term is "utility pole" as they generally carry power, phone and cable TV wiring these days, all on the same poles in many cases.
Sheldon
;DGREETINGS!! Ray, I looked at the Berkshire site, and the cost, and it left me wondering why simple sewing thread, at a fraction of the cost, could not be used!! ??? It comes in various sizes, some comes unbreakable, various colors, and looks very realistic!! :o
;) It can also resemble chains to secure a load on a flatbed!! ::)
THANX!!
8) Ernie
The model poles that are available are representative of telegraph poles. These have cross arms and insulators to tie down open (non insulated) copper wire.
The telegraph was a necessity for the railways communication and the excess capacity provided a lucrative side business.
These pole lines followed the right of ways.
With the upgrade to radio the telegraph lines were abandoned.
The value of the copper as scrap has caused the removal of the wire leaving the prototype for wireless pole lines.
This is an example of rule # 1-A (Anything can be justified).
I've rigged a lot of ship models over the years, so the concept of "rigging" utility poles would not be foreign to me, but the problem I've always had is that utility lines are not stretched tight. The trace of the wire between poles is (I guess) a section of a parabola. I have no idea how to model that, although, I suspect that soaking thread in diluted white glue before attaching it to the poles might produce the desired effect. When I get started on scenery, I'll try that and report.
Rusty
Sewing thread has a number of issues. First, it tends to both fray over time and gather dust, leaving your "wires" looking a bit fuzzy. Two, it doesn't sag properly (neither does the flexible stuff). Three, and most important, it doesn't give when you stick your hand or arm into the scene to re-rail something, or do some scenery up-grades, or whatever.
The Bershire Jct. material, being some form of rubber, has the advantage of not breaking or pulling down your poles if you bump them. However, it doesn't have the "sag" either, and it is oversize for what it represents. Consider this - railroad wires, as noted, were originally for telegraphs, and were uninsulated copper wires of about 10 gauge. That's about 1/8 inch in diameter, which scales out to about .001 inch for HO scale. That' why a lot of folks just don't bother with trying to string the wires - They really are close to being spider webbing!
The level of detail one wishes to have on one's layout is a personal choice dependent on many factors some of which may be time, cost, and risk/reward.
QuoteI counted only 11 , that only had the lines strung on the Telephone Polls . To Me , this isn't a completed layout and shouldn't be given the glory of making to a magazines .
If you look for the good in something, you will see the good.
If you look for the bad, you will see the bad.
When you publish your own magazine, featuring the railroad hobby, then you can decide who get's the "glory".
BTW your rolling stock is made mainly from plastic and your locos run off 12v DC fed from the tracks, now how realistic is that?
From your post, I see you are one of "those" who feel they know the proper way to model.
You may be surprised to find in life; very few give rats behind about your opinion, particularly about another's personal choices.
You are an ambassador for the hobby, and you wear it well.
If anyone is really interested in stringing wire on their poles use fishing line. You can have a selection of thickness and colour. It stretches just enough to put the right sag in it from pole to pole.
Don
I could be wrong but those wires always looked like steel and not copper.
Ram,
In the old telegraph days they were copper. Today, they are aluminum for the most part, but power wiring does have a rubber/plastic coating making them black or grey. On high voltage lines it is not insulation, but protects the wire from corrosion and physical damage.
You may also be seeing what looks like a stranded steel cable, that is the neutral/ground conductor.
Large telephone cables are supported with a "messenger", an aluminum cable to which the large black phone cable (which has hundreds of wires inside) is straped to.
Cable TV wires are usually white, grey or silver and almost look like small piping hanging up there.
Lower voltage wires comming into your home will be two black wires twisted around a silver bare cable.
So there are lots of different possible stuff on the poles you see. If you know anyone who is an electrican, ask them to show you what is what.
Fact still remains, all this stuff is really small in HO and simple fishing line type products can be used if you really want to model it. the biggest cables up there are only 1-2" in diameter, most are much smaller.
Also, when viewed from any distance in daylight, they all look black because of their contrast with the sky. It is only when you get close and examine them you see the colors of the different types/parts. So for modeling, black will give the best effect.
Sheldon
I didn't think I would get this type of responce, to this topic . I learned alot from reading the different opinions and knowledge .
Rather it be Telephone or Utility Poles , We are going to string them .
We are starting a Brook and a small Lake IE: Pond , and the Fishermen's Poles are strung .It's very small , but you can see it if you look . All in remembrance of my Father , Brook fishing Trout in Maine.
Our Scenery is being made unique , by the somewhat hidden things you will find . All due to my Girlfriends preference .
Thanks for all the post , it's been very helpful
Sheldon, I think you may be writing about the newer days of telegraph wires. In the old telegraph days, the wires were typically iron. Page 5 of the link below talks about telegraph lines in 1851 being #9 iron wire, about 3 mm in diameter.
http://tinyurl.com/qec6p5 (http://tinyurl.com/qec6p5)
I have also read that the splices for joining iron wire were up to 2 feet long, I assume in an attempt to get conduction through the rust and scale. I suspect that resistive joints were probably self correcting over time in that they were arc welded every time the line was hit by lightening. Most, if not all, of these early circuits were single wire with the return via the earth and the sounder relays were inserted in series, not parallel. The latter meant that longer circuits with more stations required higher voltage batteries, not fatter wires to carry more current.
It is my understanding that these single wire circuits remained in use until telephone came along. Then they were replaced with quieter twin copper wire circuits. The two wires gave a balanced circuit that rejected noise from ground currents, especially if they had a slow twist of a few turns per mile. But I am not sure if the single wire circuits remained iron or were at some point upgraded to copper.
Bottom line, the telegraph poles on an early railway would most likely have no cross arms and would likely have only one wire.
Jim
Jim,
You are quite correct and I should have been more specific. I was refering to what should be described as the second generation of telegraph, right before telephones.
And, as we have both pointed out, this stuff is so small it would be hard to model in O or G, let alone HO.
Sheldon
I just buried my power and communication lines when I was installing the sewer system.
Last Year UP salvaged the wires on their poles . I asked the crew and they said that the railroad no longer used telegraph lines and used radios to conduct communications . They do have fiber-optic cables buried on their right of way for use by telecommunication companies for extra revenue .
That is why my Gf is doing the scenery . Yes it is tedious , but I here and read so much about being prototypical . And i know it is my choice .
We had a 2ft x 2ft Hilly Rocky scene with a pond in it . And a couple of the logs laying in the water , had the realistic Water and some of the effects Water on a couple of the log tops and was shiney on top .And oh my god the Lecture we got on natural looking surroundings .
Actually after looking and listening . It made really good sence .
I drove down the road today . It was pretty aparent . that the utility poles had lines .
I have seen some layouts , in the 30's era . With Industry black top roads with little city scene's .And i ask myself . Hmm , no telegraph poles . did they use candles or oil lamps . How did they see power there industry . I know there was steam . But a whole city can't be ran by steam .
This has been an interesting topic Thanks
And ,And i say and ....The Bachmann Rail King Set, says it comes with 24 " Telephone Poles " .
peace to everyone !!!!! gotta eat supper
Sheldon. This started out talking about telephone lines along the railroads, and not power lines. I remember when one of my brothers lived on a farm in eastern Kansas. When they had rain the phones would not work half of the time. In the early days the lines along the railroad was for the railroad and western union. Then they started to use them for drop lines for the signaling system. Most if not all railroad have done away with the drop line system. I think most railroads remove the poles and wires just to keep them from falling.
I like the "mind supplies the wires" idea--
I recall at one time a lady modeler in N scale not only had the wires on her module, but "birds" on the wires--little pieces of sawdust dipped in paint and stuck to the wires.
A handy tool for stringing the wires is a "Fly tyer's bobbin" found at sporting goods stores that cater to fishermen who tie flies. It has a spindle for the spool of thread and a tube that guides the thread. gj
RAM,
There is nothing in the original posters message that states or even implies he is ONLY refering to power or communication lines along the tracks - you implied that.
Model scenes often include things not along the railroad right of way. The poster left it open for comment and interpretation.
I commented, as did others.
Sheldon
A little "realism" goes a long way. Without imagination, model railroading would be a constant frustration, trying to achieve "absolute realism". The typical HO scale pole doesn't even look like a pole, it looks like a piece of plastic. :D
I don't have poles on my layout. Representing a modern day railroad or excursion with vintage equipment, all my phone and electric lines are "underground" and out of sight. How realistic is that?
I saw a TV documentary about a guy who had achieved "absolute realism". His wife and dog left him, his eyes were glazed over, he was trembling and spoke in unintelligible grunts.
Now, who posted the mile long URL? Please have pity on those of us who don't have 54" monitors and 10,000 X 7500 resolution. :D Just kidding, but what happened to "Tiny URLs"?
Here are three prize winning layouts, modules or dioramas in both HO and N & Z scale that have poles.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/magic_09#
To me the wired poles photo is very good. The poles w/o wires are just as good, IMHO. I give top honors to the bottom left photo for his use of lighting.
Lack of wires is ok with me in this shot.
Quote from: Yampa Bob on May 22, 2009, 12:20:28 AM
Now, who posted the mile long URL? Please have pity on those of us who don't have 54" monitors and 10,000 X 7500 resolution. :D Just kidding, but what happened to "Tiny URLs"?
Sorry about that, Bob. Firefox wraps long URLs into multiple short lines. But it seems I.E. does not. At least not the version that I tried on another computer. I long ago deactivated I.E. on my own computer - too leaky. I have converted the offensive URL to a tiny one, and will try to remember to do so in the future, at least until you get that 54" plasma monitor.
Jim
Thanks Jim, much better. I have my text size set to "largest" which also causes me problems at web sites. Thank goodness for copy and paste, can't imagine typing a 211 character URL. 8)
In case some members don't know about "Tiny URLs":
http://tinyurl.com/
Okie -
To me the ones without wires in closeup shots like these don't look right. The one that is strung looks more realistic.
My 5 year old has dark brown hair to her bottom. I think I just discovered the perfect material to use. I just wonder what my wife will say about the bald spot on her little head.
Jeff
Jeff, The Salvation Army will but you up.
If some old, grey hair would work, I could send you a few strands of mine. Actually, it might even work. Or maybe we could get some red hair from the Bach-Man. That would probably look more like copper.
Jim
How about using phosphor bronze wire? Made in .008, .010, .015 + sizes. Resembles copper but you could paint it aluminum. It solders easily so you could run power to your accessories and stuff.
It comes perfectly straight in the tube, but by slightly compressing between poles, it makes a realistic parabolic sag. In fact, with poles spaced say, 1 foot apart, the thin wire would probably sag naturally and might need a bit of tensioning.
For insulators use multiples of tiny clear or pale blue seed beads. The old glass insulators were threaded inside to screw onto wood uprights. I have a bunch of them from when the telephones here went from party lines to large underground cables. Anyone remember the old crank phones? Our "number" was long, short, long. Of course everyone on the party line picked up to eavesdrop.
http://www.fusionbeads.com/shop/productchart/1799/
I'm using PB to simulate high tensile fencing wire around our ranch scene, strung on 4 inch wood posts. PB wire is neat stuff, lots of uses besides just handrails and grabs.
36 feet for $15.
http://www.tichytraingroup.com/index.php?page=view_category.php&category=Wire&offset=0
We are using the strands of wire in the Bachmann Extention Cord item # 44598 , that i cut the plugs off of to use on my turnout switches . and spraying a lite coat of black paint on them ..... my gf has started this and is working out well .