I found this picture on RailPictures.net last night: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=289394
I guess it adds a new level of potential prototypical operation
OOPPPSS! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I was gonna put that up last night! Oh well, i put up a picture of Thomas without a face instead! :D ;D
It was on the front page of the site and it caught my eye.
Well, what do you expect - it's a diesel and had no idea what the thing was. Sort of like the city slicker walking behind the frisky horse... :D
Gene
"OK Jethro, when I say NOW gun it and I'll push!"
or
"Honey, hold my beer and watch this!"
Ray
that's no ordinary diesel, that's an sd80mac. it will do the work of at least 2 of steam's finest, all by itself. MU 2 of them together and you probably have enough tractive effort to pull that turntable right out of the pit.
Quote from: jward on July 07, 2009, 05:40:46 PM
that's no ordinary diesel, that's an sd80mac. it will do the work of at least 2 of steam's finest, all by itself. MU 2 of them together and you probably have enough tractive effort to pull that turntable right out of the pit.
As Robotnik would say, "Who Cares" The only good ddiesel is an F Unit.
Jeffrey,
I hate to say this, but it just barely surpassed the tractive effort of the last of steam. Two C&O H-8s could pull it backwards while it tried to go forward.
Gene
Can any one say oops.
accordong to this page:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/allegheny/?page=co
the h8 had a tractive effort of about 110,000lbs. the sd80mac is 187,000lbs. thus the allegheny could pull only 59% of what the sd80mac can. add to that the higher speed capability of the diesel.... the h8 could haul 5000 tons at 40mph, the sd80mac can do 65 with the same tonnage or more. then add in the quicker turnaround at the yard, diesels just need tanks topped off. steam needs ashes dumped, fires cleaned and restarted, etc. plus no water stops for the diesel....
i stand by my statement about one doing the work of 3.
The only good diesel is a scraped diesel. PC I said Oops
Well, it's nice to know I'm operating prototypically! ;)
(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/tomlapointe/Mogul_Oops/Mogul_Oops_1.jpg)
...& I'm sure my operation was easier to clean up! :o
:D Tom
Quote from: pdlethbridge on July 07, 2009, 07:38:35 PM
The only good diesel is a scraped diesel. PC I said Oops
well that diesel had sume nasty scrapes i am sure.....lol
Jeffery,
The continous tractive effort of a SD80mac is 155,000 lbs, not 189,000 lbs.
189,000 lb/ft is the stall tractive effort, or in other words, the amount of power available just as it starts moving. One of the most interesting things about ANY electric motor is that it developes its maximum torque just as it begins to move than torque decreases as speed increases.
Using the SD80mac as an example, it could actually start a train based on that rating but not be able to acelerate that train past 4-5 mph as torque decreased with increasing motor speed.
The 155,000 lb number is what it can maintain at speed.
So it is more powerfull than an H8, but only by 30%.
And anything the the H8 could do at 40 mph it could do at 60-65 mph. Steam engine HP continues to increase with RPM and the boiler capicity of the H8 exceeded what its cylinders could consume even at 60 mph.
So any train it could get moving it could pull at 60-65 mph assuming track and equipment conditions would allow it.
The H8 was never used to its total potential except maybe when used for express freight or troop trains during WWII.
It was capable of being a high speed, high power loco just like a Challenger or a Big Boy, and was more powerfull than either of those.
Sheldon
The steam locomotive could pull more than it could start as horsepower increases with speed.
The diesel locomotive could start more than it could pull as its horsepower is greater at start speed but decreases as speed is increased.
Not an uncommon occurrenbce in the days of steam.
BTW--I know of places where I can fly fish AND watch trains. SP (ok--UP) in the Sacramento River canyon below Dunsmuir. The river has recovered from the Cantara spill. gj
perhaps the following from my personal experience will enlighten you on just what the sd80mac is capable of:
the first trip up to shelocta we used the sd80macs we had 4 of them on 100 cars of coal, 2 in front and 2 as helpers on 100 carloads of coal. typical train weight was 14,400 tons and length was about 5500 feet. on the way we lost one of the 4 units startiing up barton hill. we stopped the train ascending a short but brutal 2% grade and tried to restart the dead unit without success. since the track was 10 mph speed restricted, backing down to the bottom would not help as we wouldn't be able to get a run for the hill. doubling would have meant about 5 hours before we could get back to the train as we'd have had to go all the way to shelocta before we could drop the first cut, it was about 2 hours away. we'd have outlawed before then, and the helpers were in an inaccessable spot with no way to get the crew off.
the decision was made to try to start the train where we stood. we had nothing to lose. not only did the 3 remaining macs start the train, they had it up to 10mph within a train length and we topped the hill at track speed. that's almost 5000 tons per unit, started and accelerated on a 2% grade. people can quote figures and theory all they want, i was there and witnessed it.....this is just one of the many amazing things i've seen those locomotives do in the 2 1/2 years i was priviliged to work with them.
According to everything I read, diesels have a higher factor of adhesion. This is one site, I have another bookmarked but it is down for repairs.
http://www.trainweb.org/girr/tips/tips4/tractive_effort_tests.html
It makes sense as all the weight is on the wheels, no tenders, lead or trailing trucks
Jeffery,
No one is disputing the power of the SD80mac, they are great locos. I am only making fair and acurate comparisons. Even with one unit dead, you have the equal to four H8's. The C&O never to my knowledge put four H8's on any train so we have no direct comparison for your story.
In the days of the H8 hoppers where much smaller, each car only carried 50 or 70 tons. So again we have no direct comparison.
But it is my understanding a single H8 regularly handled 4,000 to 5,000 ton trains up and down a number of grades with no problem. Two H8's typically handled 140 70 ton cars (10,000 tons) up grades similar to what you discribe. That does make its perfromance similar to the SD80mac.
Also, no one is disputing the operational advantages of diesels in general, but for their time, given the conditions and technoligy of the day, the H8 was a superb machine and was no doubt one of the top 5 steam locos in terms of technoligical advancement.
And it took a long time for a single diesel to be developed that matched or exceeded the H8.
Sheldon
i don't know what the grades were on the west end of the c&o, but the mainline east of russel had one of the easiest crossings of the mountains of any of the eastern railroads. the ruling grade up to alleghany eastbound, the way the coal flowed, was about 1/2%. when i visited there in 1981 & 1982, chessie was running 180 car coal trains with 2 b30-7s on the front and 2 sd40s on the back. westbound it was steeper, but most trains were empty hoppers. this was h8 territory that i know for a fact. the tunnels had to be enlarged to accomodate them.
Something like this also happened on the SP lines. A GS-4's tender fell into a turntable well. It's true. I read it in Classic Trains
That kind of thing happened on most railroads.
Yeah....what they said! Stephen
Jeffrey,
I can't dispute the reasons that railroads switched to diesels. (No pun intended.) They were easier to maintain, they could be operated as a single unit with one crew, they were simpler to operate, and they were more flexible than a steamer. But It was only until the 1990s that any diesel ever exceeded the power of the most powerful steam locomotives. I believe that was the SD 80mac. And that locomotive barely outdid the H-8, the Y6B, the Big Boy and probably the N&W A and a couple others. The early diesels were also not very reliable, or so I have been told. Many trains had one or two more units than necessary to insure they had enough power at the end of the run.
Of course I've also read that the famous N&W test between steam and diesel was rigged, and had the test been fair, the N&W steam would have won. However, by that time, it was getting harder and harder to find appliances for steam. Sort of like today. Go into Sears and try to buy a typewriter. :)
Gene
I was wondering, can CSX do ANYTHING right?!?! There's even a website dedicated to bashing them up. It's called csx-sucks.com
Great to see you back on Yampa Bob!! I missed your help :). I also missed your quick humor!
hotrainlover- He is not back as far as I can tell. His post was from back in July. Though I miss him as well.
Steamgene- You hit the nail right on the head. It wasn't really about traction but more about maintenance and cost effectiveness. I think if steam locomotives stuck around and improved/benefited from modern technology like diesels have they would rivaled their pulling power. But just like any other business, it's all about the money.
-Brad
Quote from: BestSnowman on July 07, 2009, 09:24:06 AM
I found this picture on RailPictures.net last night: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=289394
I guess it adds a new level of potential prototypical operation
meanwhile back at the ranch,,,
"Missed it by that much!"-----Agent 86..Maxwell Smart.
Quote from: jbsmith on December 23, 2009, 09:48:17 PM
"Missed it by that much!"-----Agent 86..Maxwell Smart.
[/quote]
Ha, perfect caption for that picture!
Of course I've also read that the famous N&W test between steam and diesel was rigged, and had the test been fair, the N&W steam would have won. However, by that time, it was getting harder and harder to find appliances for steam. Sort of like today. Go into Sears and try to buy a typewriter.
I guess I missed this post. As I recall the steam won, but it was the lack of a supply of appliances that did them in. The Santa Fe had a test bed for a 4-8-4 3752. The data on the tests was not released until the hand writing was on the wall. Steam would not have lasted much longer, but it could have added another five years. As far as the typewriter, kids today do not even know what a typewriter is.
A small fact. The turntable at the B&M yard in Boston was taken out after a Budd car was sent into the pit by unknown parties.
Quote from: RAM on December 23, 2009, 10:34:34 PM
As far as the typewriter, kids today do not even know what a typewriter is.
I do ;D
I know what a typewriter is too
There are a number of flea markets in my area. Second hand stuff. You can find old style cameras, typewriters, singer sewing machines etc dating back 50+ years and still functional.
Where I am, all three are availible for a few hundred dollars max and you only need human power and a knowledge of the old ways to make these things work just as good as the new stuff imported from China today. And you dont need Batteries or Electric power to do it.