Well,  QSI has just announced the K27 sounds for the Magnum sound card.

The Magnum card is a direct plug in for the Aristo-craft PnP socket.

The Magnum provides sounds on DC and even works with a special controller for DC to allow DCC LIKE control of all sound function. It is also set up for Battery/RC.  Also, The Magnum has a plug in receiver that accepts QSI's radio receiver, which works with the CVP Airwire transmitter.

Add to that Ariso's TE and Directrix's 3 and 5 amp decoders with the compatible plug and you have quite a few choices for battery, RX, DC and DCC all with control of the individual sounds.

Looking at the QSI web site I find that the wiring diagrams match the Aristo PnP pins. several people have reported that they installed QSI sound decoders in Aristo locos with no problems. In matching the the diagrams from QSI I find the same problems, the pins just do not match up to the board shown in the engineering sample.

I understand engineering sample are supposed to isolate and identify exactly such problems. However, sometimes boards get produced and production on some components is started before there are enough pieces to assemble a complete engineering sample. Could be the cards in the sample were from a production run.

I find it unlikely that QSI would announce new K27 sounds for Bachmann K27 unless Bachmann intended to take advantage of the several control systems already out there for the Aristo pin arrangement.

Most likely this is a simple mistake when forgetting that the pin diagram on Digitrax and QSI web sites as viewed with the pins facing the camera.

My question is, will this be fixed in time for the first production run.

I have several of my locos wired to pins that replicate the Aristo arrangement. That way, I can swap decoders, swap back to DC and even swap to a battery/RC unit I sometimes use when visiting unpowered friends. I sure don't want to deal with making special twisting cable adapters, or reprogramming CV's to get the Kay up and running.

I'm sure by now SOMEONE must have tried plugging in the QSI sound system to the engineering sample and knows it will not fit in the Kay. So, can anyone at Bachmann tell us, was the problem caught in time?

All the pins are swapped. By tracing the diodes forming the bridge, I see that the + and - outputs on the Bachmann DC dummy card are opposite of the output of the decoder. So, the regulator In the loco will not work with the decoder installed.

Also the common for lighting is now on the wrong pin.

It can't be determined from the photo, but it stands to reason that headlight and backup light will be reversed. That can be compensated for by programming CV's but then will cause headlight backup light problems on DC. The track polarity can be swapped but then the motor would be wrong.

Pin 1 can just be removed so it won't interfere with the keyed socket.
That still leaves issues with left and right track wires backward and motor polarity backward. Not really an issue if only run on DCC with the decoder but will cause problems with direction lights when a decoded loco is moved to a DC layout.

Quote from: the Bach-man on September 16, 2007, 10:52:02 PM
Dear Bob,
The K-27 shown in Portland was an engineering sample. When we get production units we will be better able to answer your questions. In the meantime, I will forward your post.
Thanks!
the Bach-man

Thanks for the answer.
I understood the loco was an engineering sample. From the lettering on the board, I assumed this could have been a board from production run of boards. Of course the boards could have been a one off, but, obviously there must be a change to reverse the pin-outs. Digitrax Decoders will not work in that engineering sample. As a result, I will not pre-order until there is a confirmation that this glaring error has or is going to be corrected prior to the first run. I for one don't want to have to wait until Digitrax or QSI redesigns their decoders just to fit the Kay.  I'm really hoping the engineering sample is just a one off board and someone caught the error in time. It would be nice to be able to swap decoders (or even battery control systems) between Aristo and Bachmann. I have several DG583AR decoders that could be removed from old diesels and installed in Bachmann locos should Bachmann make the plug compatible with the DG583AR and QSI decoders. As it stands right now, with the pins reversed in the engineering sample, it looks like Bachmann is intending to make life very difficult for DCC users who wish to move away from ugly dismals and into the beautiful world of 1:20 steam.

I assume the error in the engineering sample was a simple mistake. What I want to know is, "Has Bachmann caught it in time?"  Will the first run locos be compatible with existing decoders, or will they contain the error in the engineering sample? Without an answer, I need to hold off any pre-order and wait until the actual Kay's start to show up.

Hope that someone at engineering gets back to you soon so I can pre-order before my wallet finds something else it wants.

B0B

Oh, yea! And how much current will it draw? Will it chuff? Have a fan?

I plan to pre-order a K27 in two to three weeks.

I run DCC at 22 volts.
I have some Digitrax DG583AR decoders, I could use one in the Kay.
It looks like the Decoder will plug into the plug in the tender and control the motor, headlight, backup light, and possibly the smoke.

So, my questions are:

• What about controlling the other lights?
• Can I take the wired functions coming out of the plug on the side of the decoder and connect them to pins on J2. Currently, the decoder has no connections to those pins, so I can solder the wires right to the back side of the pins on the decoder itself.
  
• When I plug the decoder into the Kay, will that let me control the cab light, number board, marker and any other lights in the Kay?
• Can anyone tell me which lights are included in the Kay and what pins they connect too?
• What are the voltage requirements of the pins? I currently run 22 volts, so 18 volt bulbs work fine. If the Kay has LEDs, are the limited or regulated in the loco so I can wire decoder function outputs directly to the pins in the tender?

Also, is there an official list of pin #s available from Bachmann that the Bach-man can post?
And, I noticed that the hand built prototype has the pins reversed from the Digitrax\Aristo assignement. Will that be changed in time for the first run?

Thanks in advance.
B0B

Quote from: Steve Stockham on September 04, 2007, 03:30:02 PM
...we're already supposed to be clamouring for the EBT Mikado?!!

I was wondering the same thing. Jeez.

QuoteBob and Dave,
  I have read the entire thread ...

Wow! You actually read all that! 

As to the pictures. I've studied the really large ones. Click the thumb, then click the big one again and you get a REALLY big one.

The drive mechanics is amazing. Axles are rigid, wheels slide side to side AND tilt. WOW.

As you said, "it will open up an entirely new way of looking at Large Scale."

I never liked the idea of one gear driven axle and side rods transferring power. Doesn't work very well on the Hauler, Not even very smooth on the LGB mogul where two are gear driven. Side rods break when non-geared axles get unexpected loads. However. Look at the Kay, The pictures show even wear on the drivers. The suspension keeps the wheels in firm contact. The axles remain in a straight line so side rods don't have to be slotted or have all sorts of slop in them. I'm going to guess that with the right weight this thing might pull even better than the Shay.

For those of us who run track power, that suspension could provide one of the best electrical pickups out there. Looks like every wheel will be firmly planted on the rails. Does anyone know how the power is gotten off the drivers? I think I see the wipe path on the back side of the drivers. It could be LGB style brushes located directly above the axles. How would that work if the wheels are independently sprung? The more I stare at those big images of the underside, the more excited I get about this loco. Sealed gearbox! Metal details! Independent suspension! DCC ready! Heck! I might forget about an indoor pike for spectrum locos. Let's hope they use UV resistant windows.

I've always liked the way Bachmann locos looked. I've bought several. I was always disappointed with the way they ran or lasted. This Kay looks like Bachmann has finally made a loco that will work for me. Maybe I'll have to sell off a few Forneys to make room for more than one Kay.

Questions: These may have been answered but I can't find them.

Expected delivery date?
Anyone taking preorders?
Any guess on the street price?

QuoteYou ever check pricing to see what the Quasinami-equipped vs the non-equipped prices are?

Yes. In fact I bought one with the Quasi,

QuoteAs far as removing it, piece of cake, and why would I want a sound card that I cannot control, nor does it have chuff inputs?

Piece of cake, I sure hope so. Was it YOU who told me "two screws from rear of tank, slide forward. With the Quasi installed, all the wiring has to be right there. I should have no problem replacing the Quasinami. Unlike the old Shay.

QuoteI just can't figure out what you want.
I suppose you really need decoders in loco and tender, all addressable, no wires, or maybe a wireless link between loco and tender.

Right, If I'm going to buy a loco that LOOKS great, I want it to OPERATE great too. Some might worry about the taper of the stack, or shape of a dome. What about the Sound of the chuff, the sound of the reverser, the operation of the lights. Why destroy the whole image with perfect details and have the wrong sounds or some flashing LED for the firebox.


See? You DID figure out what I want.
Backup light in a tender. Why would you ever put a wire from the loco to the tender for a backup light. Power it from the tender wheels. Want it directional? Put the diode in the tender, not the loco. Using DCC, put a single function decoder in the tender. Why have a perfectly accurate,  highly detailed loco then some big ugly cable and connectors between the loco and tender.
I don't want toggle switches, charging jacks, or big white computer power plugs hanging out the front and back either. If the wires between tenders and locos are not necessary, then why have them?

I have six locos with tenders that have no wires. Backup lights work as per prototype, and can be turned off for daytime running from my wireless remote. Looks like the prototype, works like the prototype, no fiddly little plugs to work loose. Even the chuff is synchronized, still no wire. Sure, wire the tender to the loco, IF IT IS NECESSARY to make it work. but it is NOT 90% of the time.

QuoteYou ever get a Quasinami equipped Shay?
You use that stuff?

YES, Got one
No Don't use it.
Why would I want a Shay that sounds like a two cylinder rodded loco?
Chuff sequence had great uneven chuff's typical of a somewhat worn cylinders. Problem is, there are only FOUR distinctly different sounding chuff's in the sequence, not SIX. Why in ___ did they think they could put a 2 cyl sound in a 3 cyl loco.
Slow it WAY down and listen to the side rod clank.
Who is the idiot who put siderods on the Shay sound card? Where are the Shay gear sounds. Where are the shay mechanicals sounds? Aren't any.

So, Yes, I bought the Shay with the Quasi, I can set it on the track and run it right out of the box. I have new decoders sitting right here waiting. I know all the needed wires are in place and identified because they are connected to the Quasi. You tell me I can do the whole swap with two screws from the rear. I will not have to lay the loco on it's side and break something. Hell, I won't even have to worry about braking off the steps or crushing some small part while removing it from the rails.

QuoteI thought you used one brand only?

Don't know where you got that from, I own more other brand locos than I do the red box. But It is only the red box locos that get run. The rest rusted up or crumbled or are to fragile to be left outside.

QuoteIf I want sound, I buy what I want and put it in.

I want sound, I do the same. I don't go around whining about someone FORCING me at gunpoint to buy something I did not want. I am tickled to death that Bachmann made a Shay with a decoder and sound. I gladly bought it of my own free will, even though I prefer better sound. I know I won't be spending time trying to rewire trucks, drilling holes for the sound to come out etc. If it was a small light locos built with toy like details I would not worry about installing anything. For a big heavy loco it's a different story, I know I can't do it successfully. Been there.

QuoteI would be upset if they came equipped with RCS.Why?
Because I do not believe control systems or sound should be a choice left solely to the manufacturer.

So you would create the "Garden Railroad Administration, Bureau of Sound and Control Regulations."

Of COURSE manufacturers should have a choice. Free society. Market will decide. They should put in what the think will increase sales, boost profits or whatever they want. It's their company, they decide.

Buyers, should ask questions. read manuals, follow forums, then make informed choices. It is entirely up to YOU to decide what to buy.
Obviously you wanted to buy a Westside Shay.You did, despite the Quasinami. Your decision. If you REALLY don't buy anything that has BLOATWARE, then why in the heck did you buy the Westside?

QuoteI have seen one post of yours where you want nothing in them, so you can add your own.
Same here.

Yep, all the small locos, I prefer nothing in them. If I have a choice between two identical locos, one with MTS one without, I buy the one without. I know I can easily install a good decoder in any small rugged TOY like loco.

If the loco is big, heavy, highly detailed, that's different. I know from past experience I'm not physically capable of laying a shay on a foam pad for lubrication without breaking of a dozen little parts.
Then I choose one with a decoder I like, or even one with a decoder I don't like. I figure it will be easy to change without rolling it over and breaking all the parts. While big heavy locos like the Mikado, Shay, and K27 are not a problem for most people, for me it is.

If the Kay ends up in production with the configurations reported so far, It looks like I can manage the conversion despite the weight and size of the loco and the nature of highly detailed fragile parts.  All work can be accomplished from the top with very little chance of breakage.

Seems to me that the only solution some people (not you TOC) advocate is to not offer DCC or even "DCC ready" in anything.

I'd like all (sparky) locos sold DCC ready. Seems to me like anything done (if done correctly) to make a loco "DCC ready" also makes it "battery ready" or "TE ready" or "DCS ready".

What happens when companies make DCC compatible locos?
First, they can't connect the motors directly to the wheels inside the trucks. Isn't that the first thing you want to eliminate for battery installs too?

Where would the battery RC installers be today if not for DCC standards? Still soldering motor tabs from truck side-frames. Drilling holes in trucks and adding more wires. Slipping insulators between the motor and frame.

I prefer locos designed for quick easy installation of a variety of power options. Their base model usually includes the most popular option, DC in LS or DCC in small scales.  Eventually that will change when some other system becomes the dominate method of running trains.

QuoteThe Quasi-nami is unusable to those with track power or trigger line r/c systems, so it goes to land-fill.
Can't put reed switches and magnets to trigger them.
Oh, and ever try to adjust the volume without accessing the adjustmenst digitally?

Nope, never expected to have features not advertised. Never saw a ad that said "manual volume knob". Course pots are cheep. If you really want one, wire it in. Why do you worry about features you were not promised on cards you didn't want in the first place. Who is it that keeps FORCING you to by the stuff you don't want?

Seems like You had three very simple choices:

• Remove the motor leads from the Quasinami motor outputs and reconnect them to the rail inputs. You got a sound card for about 100 bucks.
• Buy an un-lettered Shay and a Westside decal. What do you think people do for the 90% of railroads Bachmann does not produce?
• Call Bachmann repair and tell them the next Quasinami they need can come out of a Westside, and you will buy the lobotomized loco.
• Don't buy it. You did after all say; "I do not want any product, no matter what it is, I have to remove stuff and throw it away." So, Don't!!! Nobody is forcing you

It surprises me you buy any Bachmann products at all. Why would you buy anything with a smoke generator? They just eat up battery power. Do you rip them out, send them to a landfill? How many couplers have you sent to the landfill? How many Skates? In fact, how many springs, screws, wheels, contact brushes, rubber tires and other bits of BLOATWARE are you forced to pay for that you don't want. TOC, If I were you I'd NEVER buy another loco.

Quote from: Curmudgeon on September 03, 2007, 11:42:23 AM
Try to buy a Westside 3-truck Shay without Quasinami.

So, Who forced someone to buy a Westside Shay?

I can't buy a Grubbs Lumber Company Shay.
Or Oak Grove and Georgetown.
Or Deal Cutis Lumber Company.
OrYellow Pine Lumber Co
Or J.R.Wallace Lumber Co.
Or Vinegar Bend Lumber Co.
Or Allison and Smith Lumber Company.
Or Allied Logging and Lumber Yards.
Or Sipsey Valley (all of their locos were Shays)
Or Sample Lumber Company.
Or King Lumber Company.
Or Cherokee Lumber Company.
Or Jackson Mill.
Or any of the other SEVENTY FIVE railroads that existed in just the state of Alabama that ran Shays.

I bought a Westside Shay, (DCC), and a Pardee Curtin Shay (DC)
That does not mean that the Bach man came to my house, and with a gun to my head, FORCED me to buy either Shay. How childish.
Bay Creek Lumber Co in Alabama ran Heislers.

"I really wanted a Bay Creek Lumber Co Heisler, But Lewis came a FORCED me to buy a chrome plated Santa Fe E9."  (in your dreams)

At least a DC user CAN buy a Westside Shay. And they CAN run it on DC. And they get a sound system of about a hundred. Not a bad deal.

If they want to run it on Pulse, sorry, flip of a switch will solve that.
If they want to run in on 110AC, (And I know some who have tried) well, sorry there too.

I wonder why so many seem to have suddenly decided they really want to switch to Westside Lumber. Do they, or is it "If I can't have one my way, nobody should have one."

Childish.


It's starting to get daylight here. I'm going outside to play with my trains.

B0B

Quote from: JerryB on September 02, 2007, 04:11:55 PM
...snip
This whole push to DCC is being done by a few folks who would rather work on computers, programming, codes and electronics rather than running a model railroad. Dealers and manufacturers of DCC components are strongly involved in this push. I fully respect that this computer control stuff is a small segment of the model RRing hobby, but just that, a small segment of a very large hobby.
... snip

Maybe the the whole push to battery RC is being done by a few folks who would rather charge batteries, hack up battery cars and wire in electronics rather than running a model railroad. Dealers and manufacturers of battery RC components are strongly involved in this push. I fully respect that this battery/RC control stuff is a small segment of the model RRing hobby, but just that, a small segment of a very large hobby.

Maybe Battery users don't like cleaning track to run on DC
Maybe DCC users don't like cleaning track to run on DC... or charging batteries.

Quote from: JerryB on September 02, 2007, 04:11:55 PM
...snip
As an example of some of the problems DCC brings, the so-called "hybrid' drive currently being pushed forward is the result of at least one proponent / supplier of DCC finding that the amount of track and wheel cleaning required to keep power and signal going to the target locomotive was even more than straight DC power required. Hybrid drive may be somewhat effective in solving part of this problem, but it really adds another level of complexity to an already unnecessary and overly complex solution to a simple problem.

...snip

First of all, for those who have not run a DCC layout in the garden, DCC eliminates most (but not all) track cleaning. Many DCC users report cleaning track once or twice a year.

Ask any DCC user  who has been running for months on DCC to temporarily connect DC to their rails. It will take them hours to get the trains to run on their dirty track.

Some DCC users who run only locos with track sliders, NEVER clean their rails.

Hybrid drive:

Several years ago, George tried capacitors, Big clunky ones. Following his methods, I tried small rechargeable batteries and circuitry to switch to battery on dirty track. Did the duct tape on the rails for other garden railroaders 8 years ago. Worked like magic. Used it for two years in 5 locos. Then abandoned it.

Useless technology.

You are 100% right, it  adds another level of complexity to an already unnecessary and overly complex solution.

1 It is not necessary, (unless you have a pervert with a duct tape fetish in your neighborhood)
2 It really only is of any use in small locos with a short wheelbase. Of course, small locos have the least room for such things.
3 It helps with larger light weight locos that have poor pickups or no sliders. But, filling the space needed for batteries, relays and wiring with lead weight will often be more effective.
4 If you look at the Hybrid schematic, you see that the battery supplies power through a normally open contact. Set the loco on track with tape over one rail. There is no power reaching the decoder from the rails (tape) and no power reaching the decoder from the battery. (normally open contact stops that.) So, ask yourself two questions, Where is the decoder getting the power to read signals through the paper? Where does the decoder get it's power to energize the relay so it can switch to battery? The loco ain't gonna move.

Years ago, I and several others improved the the battery backup concept (It was not called Hybrid back then.) beyond what is currently being pushed.  One improvement was to wire the battery through the normally closed relay contact, energize the relay from the track power.  In effect, it just DISCONNECTS the battery when not needed and connects it to a trickle charging circuit. After lots on trials, many experiments, hundreds of hours running, the whole concept was dumped. Reasons sited above and several others besides.

Quote from: JerryB on September 02, 2007, 04:11:55 PM
...snip
And largely done just so DCC supporters can sell more of their products.
...snip

Sorry, but I do not see many DCC manufacturers jumping on that bandwagon.
Let's try to understand why it IS being pushed.
There are two methods of getting the DCC data into the micro processor, resistive, and capacitive.
Resistive looks at voltage polarity (pos - neg) to read data. Noise can be filtered out just by smoothing it with a filter capacitor. . Capacitive looks at changes. Every piece of sand produces a change. Capacitive pickup can read through tape, resistive can't. Capacitive pickup is so prone to noise that some model railroad clubs have banned the use of those decoders on their club railroads. Most decoder manufacturers use resistive signal pickup.

It is my opinion that battery back on DCC is only being pushed as a band aid for problems with capacitive pickup.
I don't know anyone who tried battery backup years ago that still endorses the idea, including me. Newer, better decoders and better track contact, eliminates the need for it.

Quote from: JerryB on September 02, 2007, 04:11:55 PM
...snip
Too bad that newcomers are being forced to participate in the push to fully DCC powered layouts. More so when outdoor running is considered. How many folks will want to get started in the model RRing hobby, read all the hype about DCC, try some of it (or even be forced to try it due to equipment availability), find out how much tech work is involved just to get a train around a circle, then give up the hobby.

I believe the folks pushing this as a universal solution do the hobby a great disservice, and manufacturers who are trying to make this a required standard / purchase also hurt all of us in the hobby.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

I know of absolutely no one who is being forced to buy DCC. The Shay is available in many models without DCC, including two undecorated ones. The DCC version is only available in three modes, including two undecorated ones. LGB made quite a few DCC locos. All of them ran on DC. Look at the difference in price between the shays, You can't buy a decent sound card for that.

If I understand the K27 info so far, nobody will be forced to use DCC in it. Supposedly, it should make installing ANY system much easier. (Read cheaper if you have someone else do it for you.) I'm all for that.

I am not for letting the NMRA dictate a design. They have not been very good at that lately. It could be that some decoder manufactures have way to much influence and are pushing pet designs. Maybe there is two much politicks. I have talked to the owners of a couple DCC companies who complain that any new designs of theirs gets stuck in endless review while suddenly other manufactures come up with competing (and sometimes non working) solutions and those are pushed through. That is what is hurting the hobby.

I am NOT for a standard plug. No standard plug will work for every loco. Small scales, yes, but there are way to many possibilities in large scale to be covered by one design. IE: will it force us to only use 2 wire DC motors instead of the next generation 3 wire brushless motors?

Here is what I AM for:
I'm for making it easy to convert analog DC locos to any other technology, (other than steam or clockwork)

I'm all for manufacturers developing their own standards and offering a plug to fit their locos with an optional pigtail featuring NMRA color codes.

I'm all for making it easy to remove all their basic DC electronics and swapping it with any other DCC or battery/RC control system.

I'm all for them selling their own DCC or battery RC system as a separate item, pre-wired to their own standard for direct plug and play.

I'm all for them working with other DCC and battery/RC suppliers in advance of any new additions to their standard. It should be noted that Digitrax offers the exact same decoder in dozens of different shapes and with different connectors for installation in dozens of different locos and brands of locos. Only a couple of those locos have the NMRA plug.

I'm all for them working with people in the industry who are DCC and/or battery/RC installers to improve the way their products perform and upgrade with different solutions. (Confidentiality agreements of course.) To me that is a much better solution that submitting it to the NMRA where all you competitors can copy it, nix it or delay it till they have your new improvement.

I am for complying with minimum NMRA standards og track, motor and running lights where posible.

Frankly, even though I am a DCC user, I would much rather trust TOC to design the wiring in a loco than anyone from the bureaucracy the NMRA has become in the last few years. TOC understands what it takes to make a loco work. The NMRA understands how to recruit members and form committees.

Last. I would have preferred a plug in solution behind the firebox door for the motor and loco lights. A second in the tender for the sound and backup lights. As long as I don't have the wrestle with a 50 pound locos and run the risk of scratching it, or braking off some beautiful little detail, I'm fine.

Added plugs between the tender for track power or battery are fine too, better if I can leave them off. To put two huge plugs between the loco and tender is just plain stupid (in my opinion). However, if that is the only way the loco gets made, then I'll live with it. If it turns out to be a big pain, then next time I'll know to look somewhere else for motive power.

B0B

Quote from: Curmudgeon on September 02, 2007, 11:51:37 AM
So, let me get this right.
http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48304
Seems Stanley has been working and developing with H.Lee and Lewis P, and has this wonderful socket (which the vast majority could care less about in large scale at this point), we have Mikey, who doesn't do LS, concerned about color codes, and of course, the ever important documentation, and the official word is "We are working on the interface now,"...........
I had strong opinions about dcc and dcc users, most of whom it seems wanted to jump right to the "executive position" without having a clue as to how to actually DO something (to wit: "WAH! How do I install DCC?"), the misguided guidance ("Open frame Pittman motors cannot be used with DCC as one side is grounded". What a load of manure) and they want to do it without removing anything from the track or turning it over.
I now have stronger opinions.

Holy Crap.

As poorly as some are about lubrication and inspection, I would make absolutely certain there were a dozen screws underneath to remove to access anything so the "wonderful consumer" would have to inspect and hopefully lubricate moving parts when he had it upside down.

I see the same community that wants single wire feed is now basically demanding 24-wire-harnesses between loco and tender (complete isolation at the tender......isolation of flicker "A", flicker "B", cab light, head light, markers, smoke, chuff, motors, and gawd only knows what else).

Right now, with the limited photgraphic evidence available, it appears I may have to find another box for electronics.

These are some very good points Dave. I really have to agree with you.

As a DCC user, I could care less about some stupid plug, socket or connector. Most likely, it will end up being something that a big DCC dealer can buy, mark up 2,000% and sell.  Just what we need, something keyed and hard to find or only available from Tyco industries in case lots of 1,000.
I would probably cut it off. strip the wires and put them into the small screw terminals on a generic decoder.


The only good thing about a NMRA plug, is that I can identify which of those 20 or so black and white wires goes to what by it's position on the plug. I won't have to tear the loco COMPLETELY apart or waste time with an ohm meter tracking down every wire.

Done right, a plug will allow you to disconnect all the insane electronics some manufacturers cram into their locos and toss them. That would be a boom for battery/RC, DCS, DCC or any other type of control system.

As far as I'm concerned, each manufacturer could come up with their own "standard". If they want to use some weird proprietary plug, fine, as long as they sell a mating plug with a pigtail and identify what each wire goes to. I think most anyone could then get the right wires into the right screw terminals on a decoder.

QuoteI see the same community that wants single wire feed is now basically demanding 24-wire-harnesses between loco and tender (complete isolation at the tender......isolation of flicker "A", flicker "B", cab light, head light, markers, smoke, chuff, motors, and gawd only knows what else).

I'm not sure what sort of idiot WANTS a 24 wire harness to the tender. I sure don't. I don't even want two wires. When I install DCC in my locos with tenders, I use a separate decoder in the tender just for the backup light. I even forgo a cam and use auto chuff if the speaker ends up in the tender. I'd much prefer the loco has good pickup and not even have to add track wires to the tender for extra pickups. I do want access to every light. If the firebox has two lights, I want them separate. Most decoders do have at least two different lights for the firebox.

Please don't tell me to wire to one regulator that feeds 16 different little circuit board scattered all over the loco.

When I saw the pictures and discovered there is all those wires (on TWO plugs) I thought, GAWD, what a nightmare.

A few weeks of running outside on my layout and the Florida humidity would have me cussing those connectors all the time, at least until I punt the loco into my neighbors yard for his pit bulls to play with.

However, in my case I know I can't rewire a highly detailed Bachmann Spectrum loco without breaking off dozens of little parts. BUT THAT'S JUST ME!!! I've done dozens of smaller locos. Ones I can hold in one hand. I've even done a few larger ones using 2" foam rubber pads, but those were "toy" trains made to be handled.


The only way I will ever be able to run Bachman Spectrum locos is indoors. The only way I'll be able to get one with DCC is if it comes with it, or very easy to install. I've wanted to run the geared locos since I first saw them. My very first "G" loco was a Bachmann Bighauler set just to try out the size. My first big loco purchase was a first run Shay.

Here is my experience with those:
I converted the Bighauler. Had to get inside the motor block, rewire, etc. Took the whole thing apart. Used 2 inch foam pad on work surface. Never broke a single part. Converted it THREE TIMES, once to battery/RC Then to DCC and again to DCC with sound. NO PARTS BROKEN DURING ANY CONVERSION.

I got the first run Shay. I drove 300 miles to pick it up to avoid shipping damage. I selected one from the center of a pallet. Outer brown carton in perfect condition. There were 6 broken parts in the sealed bag containing the loco. The dealer broke two more taking the loco out of the bag to check it on the test track. I figured I could glue them back on and got the Shay anyway.

Once home, I tried laying it on my two inch foam on the left side. I broke off all but one of the hooks for the water hose, and a step. I decided to set it on a display track and glue the parts back on. It was moved to a display case where it sat for years.

Once, my son and I managed to move it to the garden railroad without breaking anything. We ran it about 30 feet using DC, pulling a dozen cars. I did not order metal replacement trucks. It has not been run since.

Last December, I bought a three truck shay. When my indoor layout is ready, I'll have my two grown sons come over and help me unpack it, lubricate it, and set it on the rails. I ordered it with DCC and sound. I will never be take it off the rails.

Maybe I'm a klutz. I WILL admit that. I do NOT like to admit that I have limitations, but, just so you know, the only locos I can pick up and handle or carry are the smaller 0-4-0's etc. I've done nearly 50 DCC conversions and never broke any parts on items that weigh 5 or 10 pounds. My biggest problem was getting out tight screws on diesel fuel tanks.

All my larger locos that I regularly run (Mikado, Moguls, FA FB came with DCC. My granddaughter helped me get them unboxed, Kadee'd and, together, we set them on the rails in the back yard. They have never been off the rails since.

I have converted a few larger locos. A pacific and some F units. They take me a long time. Those locos have no where near the detail of the Shay and I had no problem with broken parts. However, working on big heavy locos is not something I find easy.

Quote from: JerryB on September 02, 2007, 04:11:55 PM
It's interesting that one of the persons who has made the most public noise about not turning the new K-27 upside down for DCC installations has previously reported lots of gear failures on his equipment (not Bachmann). We can probably surmise that those failures were at least partly due to a lack of lubrication, as properly lubricating a locomotive also requires 'upside down'. Makes me wonder how long the new K-27 is gong to run without proper lubrication, regardless of the DCC installation.
... snip
Jerry

Sorry Jerry but you would be wrong to surmise that the failures were ... due to a lack of lubrication.

Those locos were properly lubricated in the factory. According to the manufacturer they should not need gear lubrication until the gear, brushes, or motor are replaced. Nearly all my gear failures were confined to more than a dozen (belt drive) Field Railway locos.

Two of them (new) failed on the dealers test track during the normal test run many dealers are required to do for that brand of loco. ( I never even touched them.) The dealers (two different ones) sent them for repair.

Six of them failed within the first 5 minutes of operation when I got them home. Run very slow, started gently, not pulling any cars. One of them only traveled two inches before the gears gave out.

Two of them (both part of Disney sets) never failed.

There were 5 failures of the repaired ones on the dealers test tracks when they came back from repair.

I never even got them home and they had to go back a second time.

One went back three times. I called the manufacturer (not Bachmann) and he accuded me of abusing them. Can you imagine? I not only never actually touched the one that failed three times, I never even got to hold the box it came in.

In all, I've had 26 gear failures on these particular locos.

It was not due to lubrication.

I wondered why these locos kept striping the gears. Only the tips of the gears were broke off. I took a lot of measurements, even made cad drawings and discovered that only the outer half of the plastic teeth are making contact with the worm on the motor shaft. I confirmed that this was not right with Barry in a post on MLS. Then I took one loco to a machine shop that makes R/C race cars. All I had them do was drill a larger hole for the rear axle that was closer to the motor and install a bushing. This moved the axle closer to the motor.  I then installed new, OEM plastic gears. The modified loco, weighted down with a 20 pound bag of buckshot, pulled 3 heavyweight passenger cars (three axle trucks) for 7 hours non stop.
In all my excitement to try out the new axle position, I realized after the test that I had forgotten to lubricate the new gear.

The loco still runs today. At nearly $200.00 each to have the rear axle repositioned, I decided to abandon the small field locos except for the three I now have that work.

I've spent nearly 20 hours on the phone with people at the locos service department concerning this problem. Naturally, they officially deny any problem. Unofficially one engineer admitted that a series of the motor blocks used in some of those models have a reputation for stripping gears.

By the way. I have absolutely NO problem picking one of those locos up, turning it over, lubricating it. tearing it apart or putting it together. I can probably do it with my eyes closed. I can hold it in one had without breaking it.

That was it, 15? None to anyone else?

Were any of those 15 later  sold to other lines?

Can someone tell me who made the K27,  in what years and how many?

I have a couple questions about the DCC interface.
It has been rumored that the coal load can be removed and there is a DCC connector. If true, then it looks like a DCC decoder can be installed without lifting, handling, or rolling the loco to it's side.
(1) Is that true?
(2) Are there separate wires from the loco to the tender for EACH of the following;

• smoke
• marker lights
• firebox flicker phase A
• firebox flicker phase B
• Headlight
• cab light ?

(3)Can all wiring to individual functions be accomplished inside the tender to provide individual control of the above?
(4)Are there wires in the tender for a chuff cam?
(5)Are there any circuits, regulators, capacitors on the motor or other items inside the loco that must be removed when installing a decoder.

I initially thought that without a decoder version, like the three truck Shay, the Kay would be something I could not convert due to it's size, weight and fantastic detailing. If the rumors about the DCC being installed in the tender are true, then I definitely want this big rodded loco to go with my Shays. Otherwise, I'll have to wait for a DCC version.

OK! Where's the pictures,
Specifics, prices. what sound card, part number for undecorated with DCC and sound???