So who might i ask if Bachmann would have an old articulated loco without a working motor nor driveline to use in verifying a pusher mode is possible.

I seem to have a LOT of naysayers to being able to do it with a variety of existing articulates.



Design Considerations to Build a Cheaper Articulated Loco
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/is-it-possible-pushing-an-unpowered-articulated-steam-engine-13635241?highlight=design%20considerations%20build%20cheaper%20articulate&pid=1342697234



What if Questions? I want to compose these questions by looking at how one of the better (best) production articulates might have a runner-up product at a much cheaper production cost.

The Broadway Limited 2-8-8-2 is a marvelous creation of design engineering & build quality. I love mine, but for one fault,..later.


Its a pretty heavy engine with its boiler and truck frames built of casted metal. My first question is it cheaper to build these parts of cast metal rather than plastic injection? We do know that the heavy loco will have more traction power, but do we need that sort of traction power on an un-powered articulate?

Could the un-powered articulate have a plastic shell with the extra weight disposed into its voluminous interior via traditional lead weights? Perhaps the trucks themselves could be metal to assist in tracking well?


The BLI trucks are marvelous creations, but I think the un-powered version could have a much simpler design,...like these mentioned above
DSCF0240.jpg

simply straight axles laid into simple full or partial bearings,...and of course no need for that gear.


Here is the BLI truck,..
DSCF0263.jpg

DSCF0265.jpg
.......twin traction drivers, spring suspension, and somewhat complex bearing boxes.

No wonder this loco has so much pulling power, its got 2 traction tires per truck,..4 in all. Of course we all know how much traction tires are adored by many members??


Those axle bearings are both complicated in their shape, and a complicated retainer shape needs to be provided in the truck frame.


I'm really beginning to question spring suspension, ....more so in such a short in-line driver configurations we see with 3 or even 4 drive axles per truck?? And if still desired, could we use a single spring located at the center of one axle on the truck?



Look at what is crammed into the boiler section of that BLI loco,..
DSCF0266.jpg

DSCF0267.jpg

DSCF0269.jpg

DSCF0272.jpg

And its a job to get the top portion of that shell down over that and screwed into position. Let alone there is no boiler barker nor other primary speakers in there. There is no keep-alive, etc.


What if that motor and its gear towers were to be removed from that boiler and put into a pushing tender?


And last, how about servicing? It turns out BOTH of the drive gears in mine are cracked,..

DSCF0275.jpg

Can you imagine what a headache it is going to be to replace them !!

Bachmann 4-8-4 (Santa Fe model w long tender), blue box

I have a couple of these Bachmanns 'Northerners' , which I believe are their latest models of this loco, but are not Spectrums. Item 50801

They are nicely detailed models,.... and run very smoothly,...and pull very good.
 
I posted this back in 2021, and I think i need to make some new notes.

Their pulling power is NOT that good,...at least in my current state of judgement. Its not terrible, just not that good.

I have found they have a tendency to 'pick a turnout' with their front driver wheel. I have a couple of Peco 3-way turnouts on my layout, and the radi for the diverging routes is quoted as 24"r. I have measured those turnouts before I installed a number of them on my layout, and it does appear to be true,..24".

Several of those Bkmann 4-8-4 are derailing their front drivers as they reach the frog,...and one of them constantly. Fortunately there is one of those 3-ways right at the front edge of my upper deck, so its easy to run some diagnosis test on.
 
TRACK or LOCO ?
Like most early Peco turnouts the guide rail slots across from the frogs are too 'roomy',..the slots were built for those Euro cookie cutter engines, and they need a little shimming to help get some of our modern engines thru with less frog picking.
 
So I am relooking at my shim to make sure I have it correct. It did seem to work with lots of my other fleet or engines.

I am experiencing what appears to be a lifting off the rails by the leading driver wheel,...which is really like a picking of the frog. I removed the leading truck on the engine so as to eliminate it as a potential source of the problem,...that did not work. I also added some extra weight (externally) up on the front of the engine,...that did not work.
 
I noticed that the body/shell of the loco did not seem to what to fully rotate towards the turning direction, and this was contributing to the derail of that front driver. This loco does have a very extended back body/ frame that would need to come around a bit more to help the situation out,...and of course the drawbar and tender connecting wiring doesn't help matters,...in fact they can exacerbate the situation by holding back some of the needed rotation.
 
I've identified one other item that I think could be contributing to the problem. This loco was built with a LOT of sideways axle play,...likely done so it can negotiated tight radi. But the back driver has too much sideways play such that it doesn't act to help 'turn' the body/shell. I think I am going to have to find a way to cut down on some of this excess 'play'.
 
Experimentation under way,...

Several weeks ago i started this new subject thread over on MRH forum.

A little over a year ago I discovered these 2 Roco steam engines in my inventory.
 

bought a couple of Roco steam engines a few months ago,....to run some experiments with my 'pusher/helper' ideas. It's opened my mind up to a new way to design steam engines, not only European ones, but even our American models.
 

First thing I did was take the engine portion (boiler,drivers,et) out of the box and put it on the track. It was amazing rolling this engine along the track,..silky smooth,..no binding whatsoever of the connecting side rods, and of course being without a motor,..no resistance from any gearing.

Then I tried rolling it thru a curve,..an 18" r one at that! This 2-10-0 loco (5 big drivers) ran just as smooth thru that curve as it had on straight track...
DSCF0275.jpg
 
DSCF0277.jpg
 
Even with its tender it could negotiate the 18r inch curve
DSCF0276.jpg
 
 
I repeat, "It was amazing rolling this engine along the track,..silky smooth,..no binding whatsoever of the connecting side rods, and of course being without a motor,..no resistance from any gearing"
 
And what was more amazing is it pulled a LONG train of freight cars by itself !


I have now pushed a Mantua 2-6-6-0 succesfully.
And I have now pushed a Broadway Ltm 2-8-8-2 succesfully.

Have a look thru this rather long subject thread, where i document this, and fend off a number of naysayers,...
https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/is-it-possible-pushing-an-unpowered-articulated-steam-engine-13635241

I need some more articulates to run experiments on,...and the thought occured to me that Bachmann might have a number of warranty engines I could utilize in my further experiments?

I posted this request on several different websites,..
Is there anyone out there that has an articulated steam engine they have given up on.??

I'm looking to run some experiments on 'tender powered pusher'...

I would be stripping out the motor/drive system in the boiler portion, and building a motor/drive system in the tender,..

to show folks that you could have a tender powered articulated steam engine


Regards, Brian Eiland,...railandsail

I have a number of these Bachmann 4-8-2 Mountain locomotives, the C&O ones with the flying pumps and vandy tenders,...one of my favorite designs.
 
They suffer from the 'derail prone' pilot truck syndrome, and I am looking for solutions,
 
I was looking at the drawings that came with the locos, and a question came to mind.  Am I reading the drawing correctly,... that there was at one time some sort of spring-metal part to push down on that pilot truck.....part # H114X-MTB44 in this dwg?
HO Spectrum Mountain loco.jpg

https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/259338/8603894/HO%20Spectrum%20Mountain%20loco.jpg
 

Quote from: richg on May 19, 2014, 03:54:29 PM
I am sure you did not scroll down. There is a HO forum here.

The coal load option is good. Some do this with a 16mm x 35mm oval speaker. You can mount the speaker firing up or down. Drill tiny holes in the coal load and use diluted white glue on the load and sprinkle with coal dust. Some have done that as well with standard coal load tenders.

Also, many suggestions, photos in the below link.

http://tinyurl.com/ns4hwm4

Rich

Hi Rich,
Do you think it might be better to place this discussion in the HO section?

Can you post photos on this forum,...or do you have to reference folks to a photo hosting site? What is they say, ...a picture is woth a thousand words....

Here is another forum where I posted this discussion with some photos:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?27672-Adapt-Bachmann-Vandy-Tenders-to-Run-Behind-Other-Engines&p=348505#post348505

http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?27672-Adapt-Bachmann-Vandy-Tenders-to-Run-Behind-Other-Engines&p=348506#post348506

Quote from: richg on May 12, 2014, 06:48:26 PM
This can get addictive. Build a library in Photo Bucket. Photos can be hard to find after a while.
Don't move a picture or it will go away in the forum you posted it. Just add another photo in a different album. You will get a pop up message if you try to move or change a photo.

Rich

You mean to say that if in the future you try to reorganize your photos into 'albums' then the link may no longer be viable?? Seems like foolish software design to me? I'm on a number of boating forums that let you simply post a photo, but limit the size of it. Much more user friendly.

I have a number of Bachmann Vandy tenders that I wish to put sound (and decoders) into. In particular I am looking at the VC16 and VC12 tenders at the moment.

First the VC16 tenders. I want to build at least 3 different versions for experimentation purposes.
1) mount a Railmaster bass-reflex speaker (already enclosed in its own 'box') on the bottom frame firing out the bottom of the tender.
2) make another version like that of #1, but add a small round hi-bass speaker firing out the front of the tender (in the slot provided for the drawbar) into the cab area of the loco.
3) make another version that would utilize 2 or 3 small hi-base speakers firing out the bottom of the tender, plus one such speaker firing out front of the tender into the cab area of the loco

The VC 16 tenders I have do NOT have any holes in their bottom sides to let the sound out, so I need to drill some. I am proposing to drill some rather 'larger than stock' size holes in between the two long frame members in the bottom of the tender. My thoughts are that these larger diameter holes will allow for a deeper base sound to emanate (sort of like those custom car mufflers for those small engined imports)

In drilling these sound relief holes it would be much easier if that brake reserve cylinder were not in the way.
Any suggestions on how to remove and then reinstall it and its piping??

RailMaster Speakers I intend to use
http://www.railmasterhobbies.com/Speakers.htm

Can you reference an image posted on some other site than one of the image hosting sites...like somewhere else you may have posted the image??

The reason I ask is that I have tried to resist posting images to ANY of these image hosting sites...I just think there are too many alternative motives involved with those sites?

Can someone tell me about adding photos to this forum? I've looked all over and don't seem to find a definitive location/definition.

When I tried a number of times, I believe I read the reqirement that the pimage be less than 128 kp, and that only 4 are allowed to one posting. Is that correct?

Is there also some limit on the dimensions of the image....perhaps width? I would have thought that might be covered by the 128 max definition.

I keep getting the 'upload box is full' even after adding only one 100kp image

I'm sure that their were a number of fans just waiting for a plastic model of this EM-1 that was previously only available in brass.

There was another large articulated engine that was also dreamed of for years. And finally Rivarossi introduced their C&O H8 Allegheny. What a beautiful engine these are. I have several, but they remained 'unpacked' as I sold my layout anticipating a move overseas.

I just bought another of these engines,...a used one that is pretty heavily weathered. I was a little nervous about the purchase until I received the loco a couple of days ago. WOW, the weathering really does show off all of the superb detail on this loco. I'm going to try and post some photos.  (Had trouble posting photos here ??, so here is a link to some of them)
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=296774&postcount=40

Interestingly this loco came with an aux fuel tender (the Bachmann one). I rather doubt that the Alleghenys ever used an aux tender, but that looooog package looks real neat

Thanks for that info Rich. I realize how stupid my question was after I googled 'save a web page' and saw how many different options there were depending on a quite a number of factors. Sorry to clog up this discussion with that question.

I'll try to make up for it with a more substantial posting.

Next I have to figure out how to get notification when a new posting is added?....many different forum software configurations. 

Quote from: richg on December 17, 2011, 07:04:27 PM
This is great stuff Jonathan. I hope people here are downloading the photos as I am sure with time, this thread will be buried. Bachmann has changed the website in the past and it could happen again.

I am actually saving each page to my PC as a HTML so if the site ever goes away, I have everything. That is a trick many users are not aware of for Internet sites.
I belong to a bunch of forums but not seeing anything like this yet.
Rich

Quick question Rich, is that save as an 'HTML only' or 'HTML complete'. I'm still learning this computer language even after 9 years of forum participation. I guess I am old school that thinks I have to save things in 'favorites', or make a print out of a page or so to remind me to return to a discussion.

Quote from: jonathan on December 28, 2011, 06:02:07 AM
....So, #7600 now runs just as nicely as #7627.  My sound units has arrived, but I still owe a few bucks on my layaway.  Hopefully, I'll have the units installed by the February train show in Timonium.
Jonathan

Just found and read thru this subject thread,...very entertaining.

Do you still live in the area of the Timonium show? Will you be there this Feb??

Quote from: CNE Runner on April 01, 2012, 10:47:33 AM
Col
First a little chemistry: The black deposit on the top of the rails is nickel oxide (III). Recent studies have shown that this 'deposit' is comprised of a mixture of nickel oxide, dust, and other contaminants. Oddly, under microscopic observation, the 'deposit' is arranged in 'dots' or 'spots' and is not continuous. The current prevailing theory is that small amounts of 'dirt', on the locomotive wheels, causes arcing between the wheel and the rail surface (the 'dirt' effectively 'picks up' the wheel allowing it to lose contact momentarily with the rail surface) - speeding up the process of corrosion.

Interesting, I always thought that crud that built up on the rails, on the loco wheels, and on the rolling stock was 'disolved plastic material' from those cars running plasitic wheels....plastic abrasion against metal rails, helped along by a slight disolving action by all those different 'track cleaning solvents' we are being sold.

As I read a few other forums in addtion to this one, it does appear to be a rail oxidation problem, and applying something to help with this oxidation seems very worthwhile.

I was just this morning looking back thru some older mag articles and took note of this one pager titled "Polish those Railheads".

Decided to see if I could google it and see what else was out there. I ran across this discussion on this forum;
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/212742.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1

[

Quote from: Atlantic Central on February 07, 2011, 03:25:26 PM
Tip #7 - tender swaps - the following is a copy of a post from some years ago on the Bachmann board regarding tender swaps. It contains most everything you need to know about Spectrum tender swaps and how to do them without major rewiring or moving/replacing circuit boards:


If anyone has other Bachmann tender swap questions, I can likely help, just ask. I have used Spectrum tenders behind a number of other brands of locos with good results as well.

This is quite long now, so I will leave it at this. Feel free to offer your thoughts or ask questions.

Sheldon

So here is my project:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27672

Adapt Bachmann Vandy Tenders to Run Behind Other Engines
This idea has surfaced as I attempt to kit bash a Proto2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 loco to look like a C&O H7 loco with the vandy tender option.

I have 2 tenders I would consider using with this loco,...a VC-16 and a VC-12, both of them those very nice ones made by Bachmann. I have already modified one of my VC-16 tenders to mate up with the Proto2K loco;......I carved out a slot in the front of the tender so that it accepts the stock draw-bar of the Proto2K loco.

Here is my basic thought process on the tender and sound situation. I thought I could take one of my Bachmann VC-16 tenders and one of the VC-12 tenders and put the sound decoder and the speakers in each. (I have in mind a dual hi-bass speaker installation in each one). I could then run either of these tenders behind the 'H-7 Proto2K loco, AND behind the various Mountain locos I have ( I have several Bachmann ones and several IHC ones).

I simply need to equip these two tenders with speaker(s) and a Tsunami decoder. I just need to make everything compatible with electrical mini-connection plugs between loco and tenders. I believe I could just utilize the Bachmann style mini-connection plugs since all my Bachmannn tenders have this style, and two of my Bachmann mountain locos have this style already existing ??

The tenders are equipped with 2 different mini-connectors that make connection to their engines, .....one 4-pin plug, and one 2-pin plug, both orange in color. I assume the 2-pin plug brings the loco's wheel pick-up current back to the electrical board in the tender, and then the DCC power and lights get transmitted back to the loco via the 4-pin plug?? Does that sound correct??

If we stayed with the 'Bachmann connector types' then we would have to provide 2 Bachmann male connectors on the Proto2K H-7. My Bachmann mountain locos already have their male connectors. If I wanted to run these 'sound tenders' behind my IHC locos I would have to provide Bachmann male plugs for them also.

Is this doable, and a correct explaination??

Can I get these mini-connectors from Backmann??

Brian