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31  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann on: August 02, 2008, 04:39:22 PM
Mike made the point much more emphatically that I tried to make gently earlier.  The E&WNC 4-6-0 will be a wonderful model which will be very well suited to the wants of many modelers, and I am pleased to see it.  However, if you are (like self) an RGS modeler, this is NOT going to be an easy starting point to obtain a model of the ex Florence & Cripple Creek 4-6-0s.  Not quite as much of a stretch as trying to build a model of the CP "Jupiter" from Athearn F-7 parts that was a common joke at model railroad conventions, but not a simple conversion.  The driver diameters are different, driver spacing is different, valve gear is different, and so on. 

I don't think it will be a good starting point for the Schenectady 4-6-0s built for the F&CC.  I don't see this as a problem.  This is a model which will be very attractive to many people - the prototype is seen by many visitors to a well known theme park, and it may be a starting point to modeling some similar Baldwin ten wheelers.  Mike Miller may be able to tell us how close this one will be to the NCO locomotives (excepting the whaleback tenders), so possibly a budget 'close to' SP 18 may be possible.  That will make some SP narrow gauge fans happy. 

As I said, perhaps when the real RGS 20 is back together and operable, more interest in a correct model of that group of locomotives will lead to one being produced.   That is a way in the future, but who knows?   If not by Bachmann, perhaps someone else.  For now, I think there's plenty of opportunity out there.  Bachmann has provided a lot of nice locos and cars which have really helped give a boost to narrow gauge modeling.  No, they haven't done my favorite locomotive in On30.  But they have done some which I'm very happy to have.  And I'm one of the weird people who re-gauges mine to On3.  The C&S 2-6-0s look great with another manufacturer's C&S freight cars, including a very nice C&S caboose.  The Climax was easy to re-gauge, and it looks fine with another manufacturer's Pacific Car & Foundry log cars.  The rail truck was an easy conversion.  Too bad RGS 1 had such a short service life! 

Happy modeling and modifying
Charlie Mutschler
32  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann on: August 01, 2008, 01:41:25 PM
Actually, Bachmann has done rather well in giving broad geographic coverage with their selection of prototypes.  A gentle rejoinder to WVM Guy, Matt, and Dusten - the On30 offerings actually has a preponderance of eastern prototypes, and the argument that Colorado prototypes seems odd when you consider what the prototypes for most of the models are.

In motive power it comes out two  Colorado prototypes- the rail truck (RGS Goose 1), and the C&S 2-6-0.  The Porter tanks are ubiquitous, the Shay and Climax are pretty generic, as is the Davenport diesel.  The announced rail bus and trailer  is of an eastern prototype (albeit standard gauge), the 2-6-0 without the air tanks on the boiler is very close to Ohio River & Western and Washington & Waynesburg locos; the 2-4-4 Forneys  are very close to SR&RL prototypes, the inside frame 4-4-0 is a Cornwall & Lebanon prototype. 

The freight car fleet is very largely eastern prototypes - again Ohio River & Western cars wee the basis for the flat, low side gondola, and box car; the log car looks very close to cars used by the Surry Lumber Co, and the Ely-Thomas Lumber Co.  the pulp wood car is a SR&RL prototype.  The twin hopper is based on a very small number of two bay hoppers on the East Broad Top.  While most of these cars are available lettered for western roads, the fact is that many, if not most of the Bachmann On30 freight cars are based on eastern prototypes, regardless of how they are lettered.  If you don't like the western lettering on these eastern prototypes, get some paint and decals, and re-paint them.  Gosh guys,  doesn't anyone actually -model- any more? 

I think the Bachmann team has actually done remarkably well in offering a wide variety of prototypes for a wide variety of audiences.  One thing strikes me - this is actually a good time to be in the hobby, because there is a lot of material out there for many audiences.  No manufacturer will do it all.  For the RGS fans, I think I would try and talk to one of the other manufacturers, because when the prototype RGS 20 returns to service, there may be much more interest in a model.  Right now, the ET&WNC 12 has been in service and has been seen, while RGS 20 has hot turned a wheel under steam for over 55 years. 

YMMV etc. 
Charlie Mutschler
33  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: LGB logging disconnects on: July 28, 2008, 11:44:17 PM
The question may be what prototype the LGB disconnects come closest to.  Disconnects were, often, equipped with lower couplers than common carrier equipment.   Pacific Car & Foundry, in Renton, Washington offered two versions of their "Hercules" disconnected truck - a low Hercules, and a high Hercules.  The low one had lower couplers, but the high Hercules had couplers that matched the common carrier equipment.  My recollection is that the H-O disconnects offered by Kadee for these many years are basically a model of the PC&H high Hercules.  Now, how this was handled on narrow gauge railroads is another question.  I don't know if there were narrow gauge disconnects equipped to couple to common carrier three foot gauge equipment.  I don't recall seeing any reference to such, but that's no proof that it didn't exist. 

So what did the loggers do?  Use an offset link and pins to slotted knuckles, or an extended knuckle on the locomotive. 

Happy modifications. 

Charlie Mutschler
34  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Nice pic of new 4-6-0 - I'm in love ... :) on: July 27, 2008, 10:07:25 AM
That cabbage stack should make the Sumpter Valley modelers happy - a conversion to something close to SV 50 should be possible.  Once again, the Bachmann team seems to be covering a lot of interests - from the tiny (Davenport,railbus) to the larger (ET&WNC 4-6-0).  Nice work, folks. 

35  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: A Q about 4-6-0 for Bachmann on: July 26, 2008, 10:30:24 PM
The ET&WNC 4-6-0 isn't likely to be an easy conversion to a dead-on model of the ex F&CC 4-6-0s that went to the RGS.  But, I suspect some enterprising people may feel that this locomotive can work for a number of prototypes.  The problem is that most of these other locomotives were slightly smaller than the ET&WNC locos, but, as I say, this may be a good starting point. 

ET&WNC 10, 11, 12, and 14 (Baldwin, 1916 - 1919) had 16 x 22 cylinders and 45 inch drivers.  Slide valves, Walschaert valve gear.  Not a lot of other 4-6-0s built for other narrow gauges in the US this late, but there are a few that are close. 

ET&WNC 8 and 9 (Baldwin, 1911) were slightly smaller - 15 x 22 cylinders, otherwise very similar - 45 inch drivers, slide valves, and Walschaert valve gear.  Seems as if these could be conversions from the model being developed.  One of these was ex Twin Mountain & Potomac  No. 2, one of a pair of identical 4-6-0s so there's an opportunity for those who demand something that isn't Colorado or well known. 

Slightly smaller, with 16 x 20 cylinders and 44 inch drivers, slide valves and Walschaert valve gear were Nevada California Oregon 11 and 12, built by Baldwin in 1911.  These had whaleback tenders, and were sold about 1927 or 1928, with No. 11 going on to be Pacific Coast 111, and No. 12 became SP 18.  SP 18 survived to go on display, PC 111 went to the Oahu Railway for use there during WW II, and was scrapped after the OR&L abandoned main line operations. 

Sumpter Valley No. 50 (Baldwin, 1916) also had 16 x 20 cylinders, but 42 inch drivers, slide valves and Walschaert valve gear.  Here's one to go with the cabbage stack the Bachmann team has developed.  The SV burned wood for most of 50's career there.  She went on to Peru. 

Also, ET&WNC 10 and 14 went to the White Pass & Yukon in 1942, and had a very short service life there (about a year) before being damaged beyond repair in the Whitehorse, YT engine house fire.  So there are some possibilities for this one, but not really F&CC / RGS 4-6-0's.  Still, this is a model which should have some nice possibilities. 

Charlie Mutschler
36  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Announced New Mallet Question? on: July 26, 2008, 09:18:35 PM
Interesting comparing the pre-production sample with John Lewis' drawings and photos of other narrow gauge articulates, both simples like the meter gauge 2-6-6-2s built for Rio Grande do Sol (Brazil) and mallets.  All of these prototype three foot and meter gauge locos have the dry pipes to the rear engine down below the running boards except for the Uintah's pair.  My thinking is that this feature was only used on the Uintah locomotives because it was needed to get adequate clearance so the front engine could swing far enough to negotiate the 60 degree curves. 

This looks like an interesting model, and one which was, again, much in demand among the commenting crowd on this and other sites.  I haven't decided if I want one of those or another mudhen. 

Charlie Mutschler
37  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Announced New Mallet Question? on: July 18, 2008, 09:04:09 PM
Hamish, you are most welcome.  Anyone interested in the Uintah will find a good bit of material has been published.  Henry E. Bender's _Uintah Railway:  The Gilsonite Route_ is the basic must-have history of the URY.  This book has been re-printed, and I haven't looked at the reprint to see if more material has been added.  However, the original volume has mechanical specs for the locos, including copies of Baldwin erecting cards for some, including the 0-6-2T's.  Scale drawings of Shay No.1, 2-6-6-2T No. 51, flat, box and stock cars as well as combine No. 50 in its rebuilt form.  This is as the car now exists at the Colorado Railroad Museum, awaiting restoration. 

Roger Polley's two volume _Uintah Railway Pictorial_ is well worth having if you are a URY enthusiast.  Many images, reprints of maps, etc. that are not in Bender's book.  Polley has minimal text, many, many photos.  Bender has a good history, many fewer photos. 

Then there is a movie of the URY with the articulateds at work which was issued by Machines of Iron.  Very interesting. 

Uintah 20 and 21 had 13 x 18 inch cylinders, 34 inch drivers, 24 inch trailing truck wheels; weight slightly over 34 tons in working order, and had a tractive effort of 13,680 pounds.  The tender bunker held 1.5 short tons (3,000 pounds) of soft coal, and the side tanks 970 US gallons of water.  Sufficient to handle one car on the 7.5% grades on Baxter Pass.  Photos show two-car passenger trains with a Shay helper, or just the Shay as motive power on the pass. 

Happy modeling. 
38  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Announced New Mallet Question? on: July 17, 2008, 09:10:13 AM
Uintah Railway 21, stored at Atchee, Colorado. Nos. 20 and 21 were 0-6-2T locomotives built by Baldwin for the Uintah.  They were passenger power for this road.  Passenger trains on the Uintah were a single combination coach / baggage car, with the US mail handled in locked pouches in the baggage end of the car.  The little tanks could negotiate the 66 degree curves on Baxter pass, and could just pull the single car up the 7% grade.  Both were retired after the Baldwin 2-6-6-2s 50 and 51 took over from Shays on Baxter Pass, and the curves were widened to a mere 60 degrees.  At that point the freight train became a mixed, with the combination car on the back, so the passenger power was no longer needed.   

On the few occasions when longer passenger trains operated (one was a troop movement) the trains were handled by Shays on Baxter Pass. 

Charlie Mutschler
39  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Bachmann, what in the h*** were you thinking??? on: July 15, 2008, 08:43:55 PM
Wow - You are one scary gent, Mr. Bach-man - the much loved prototype for the ET&WNC folks will be appearing in the familiar boxes sooner than even I anticipated!  Well, the fact is that the Bachmann team is still doing well - something for just about everyone.  I hope these also sell well.  I would guess some of the WP&Y folks will be interested, although the pair of ex ET&WNC 4-6-0s were only in service briefly before being damaged in the Whitehorse, YT engine house fire.  Again, free lancers should be very happy. 

Charlie Mutschler
40  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Bachmann, what in the h*** were you thinking??? on: July 14, 2008, 09:12:32 PM
'What were they thinking?' Dusten asks.  I would say they were listening to a segment of their market.  There was a lot of enthusiasm for these little outside frame Baldwin 4-4-0s when the discussion about an On30 4-4-0 got serious a few years ago.  Are they everyone's cup of tea?  No.  No more than the Fn3 K-27 is everyone's cup of tea, or the On30 Forney, or the T Boiler Shay, or even the original 2-6-0.  We have modelers, some in north America, many elsewhere who are modeling actual 76 cm or 30 inch gauge prototypes, not using it as an inexpensive way to model what would correctly be On2 or On3 north American prototypes.  Many of those prototype 30 inch gauge modelers may be very happy to have this little 4-4-0.  I suspect many of the free lance modelers may like it as well. 

But when you think about it Bachmann has really done a rather impressive job of covering the waterfront with (dare I say it?) a broad spectrum of locomotives in their On30 line.  Two foot gauge prototypes:  Porter 0-4-0T, 4-4-0, Forney.  Thirty inch gauge prototypes:  Porter 0-4-0T, 0-4-2T, 2-8-0, and now the outside frame 4-4-0.  Three foot gauge prototypes:  Porter 0-4-0T, 0-4-2T, T Boiler Shay, 2 truck Climax, Rail Truck (RGS 1), 2-6-0. 

No, the new outside frame 4-4-0 isn't my favorite prototype locomotive, but I hope it sells well for Bachmann, and I applaud them for listening to their customers.  A lot of customers emphatically expressed a desire for a 30 inch gauge export loco rather than a 36 inch gauge 4-4-0 like E&P EUREKA.  It will be interesting to see what's coming along - my guess is if the list of what's been offered is a guide, over the course of time, most of us find some of the prototypes we love show up in the familiar boxes. 

Happy modeling and modifying. 
Charlie Mutschler
41  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: k-27 pilot on: July 08, 2008, 10:16:06 AM
Actually, the prototype had to do the same conversion - remove the road pilot, and install the plow.  Which is why in later years, the D&RGW and RGS tended to have some plow equipped mikes year round, and others with pilots.  As I said before, there a re a lot of photos of these locomotives, so some research for the particular locomotive and time period may be helpful. 
42  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Some suggestions for future large-scale products on: July 05, 2008, 01:21:31 PM
The K-28 is a completely different animal from the K-27, so there isn't much tooling that will work for both.  The K-27 has 40 inch drivers, the K-28 has 44 inch drivers,  just for starters.  Besides, I think the EBT folks are hoping for something from that road before another western mike shows up . . . and there too, the need will be for all new tooling.  Meanwhile, we shall anticipate. 

Charlie Mutschler
43  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: k-27 pilot on: July 05, 2008, 01:13:20 PM
Pilots, like tool boxes, were frequently changed as needed by the D&RGW.  For anyone doing serious attempts to model a specific K-27 (or any other prototype locomotive) finding a set of photos for the time period you are modeling is essential.  For example, consider D&RGW No. 452.  Road pilot in 1931, switcher pilot in 1935 and 1940, road pilot in 1947.  Pilot tool box in the above photos.  Np. 453:  Road pilot and pilot tool box in 1933, 1937, 1938; road pilot but no tool box in 1939; Pilot snowplow un-notched for ends of pilot beam in 1940(on RGS);  with high 'bucker plow (no coupler) on Silverton  branch in May, 1942; road pilot and no pilot tool box in July, 1942; switcher pilot, no pilot tool box, and firehose box on cab roof (a Durango special feature) plus dog house in 1947.  All images from O'Berry's book (see below). 

The reality is, most model manufacturers make something accurate for detail to most of a series, and the modeler has to do the final detailing himself.  You have to hand it to Bachmann, who have really made it much easier for the Fn3 (1:20.3) modeler to model any of the seven K-27's rebuilt with the outside canted cylinders - even to doing the hard work for RGS 455 after its 1947 rebuild.  But, there's still plenty you can do to make your mudhen distinctively yours. 

I recommend Dennis O'Berry's book. _The Mudhens:  A Photographic History_ as a good starting point.  The Denver Public Library has on-line access to photos by Otto Perry and Robert W. Richardson that should be very helpful.  Happy researching, and happy modeling. 

Charlie Mutschler
44  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Aint it about time on: June 25, 2008, 09:24:58 PM
Yes, I'm partial to the F&CC / RGS 4-6-0s, but that might not be as compelling a prototype for Bachmann as the ET&WNC 4-6-0 since they have the research done for that prototype.  As for cars?  Well, I think you have to give Bachmann credit for covering the continent with their prototypes.  No, it won't please everyone, but there really is something for nearly everyone. 

Eastern prototypes:  Box car, flat car, low side gondola - all appear to be very close to Ohio River & Western prototypes, right down to the Eames vacuum brakes used on the OR&W, Washington & Waynesburg, and a few other lines.  The stock car and tank car on flat car look very close to ones used in the mid-west on the Bellvue & Cascade, in Iowa.  Two bay hopper - East Broad Top.  Skeleton log car - looks similar to some used by Ely - Thomas.  Pulp rack - Sandy River & Rangely Lakes (2 foot) - Maine.  Locomotives:  Cornwall & Lebanon (2 foot) 4-4-0 - Pennsylvania.  Sandy River & Rangely Lakes (2 foot) 2-4-4T Forney - Maine - inside and outside frame versions.  The 2-6-0 is close and a good starting point for some of the Washington & Waynesburg and Ohio River & Western locos. 

Rocky Mountain prototypes:  Rail truck - Rio Grande Southern No. 1 (a very short-lived prototype)

Far Western prototypes:  The Shay can be used as the starting point for Michigan - California 2, but you'll need a new tender.  No absolute far-west only prototypes come to mind - except maybe the fact that the 2-8-0 is based on an export model sold to the FC Mexicano. 

The passenger cars are pretty universal, though several people have expressed interest in typically eastern board and batten siding.  The high side gondola and reefer are free-lance, but go well with the other equipment.  The side dump cars are nice contractors equipment that would look great with the Porters 0-4-0T and 0-4-2T. 

As I say, actually Bachmann has done pretty well at providing a diversity of products. 

Charlie Mutschler
45  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Aint it about time on: June 25, 2008, 05:23:13 PM
Model railroad curves - almost without exception - are unprototypically tight.  This is just reality - most of us don't have a warehouse to build our railroad in, and the compromise is to force our equipment around curves typically found on industrial, logging, and street car trackage.  Dusten would like to see a 4-6-0, and there are calls for more 2-8-2s, and hopes to get around 18 or 22 inch radius curves in On30.  Lots of luck. 

For the sake of argument, let's consider the ET&WNC.  Their trackage was comparable to that in the Rocky Mountain west, which is where I have prototype data to support my points.  Presuming the ET&WNC was like most of the C&S, D&RGW, or RGS, the sharpest main line curves were generally 24 degrees - or 240' 6" radius.  (Actually main lines in Colorado included some 24.5 degree curves, but let's not split hairs).  That's about 60 inches in O scale.  Sixty inches radius equates to a 10 foot diameter circle.  Most of the On3 crowd running mikes (D&RGW or EBT, take your pick) think 44 inches is a reasonable minimum.  That, however, scales out to 176 feet radius - much, much sharper than the prototype.  Unfortunately, we all seem to be caught in that problem.  My hat is off to the model manufacturers, who have managed to design model steam locomotives which negotiate curves which are usually much to sharp for the prototype to operate on. 

Again, I think if I wanted something as large as the ET&WNC 4-6-0 in On30 / On3, I would be thinking in terms of something that could negotiate a 35 inch radius curve.  And my guess is that a good model that would appeal to the On3 as well as On30 market, would probably need something more like 40 to 44 inches.  The little 4-4-0 Bachmann offers in On30 is a beauty, and it gets around sharper curves than the large prototype for the Fn3 4-4-0.  For a typical Baldwin 18C 4-4-0 like E&P "EUREKA" wider curves are required - say 24.5 degrees.  So getting an On3 EUREKA around anything tighter than 40 inches might be a challenge. 

I think a number of people are interested in 4-6-0's, but I think the point about the large number of On30 people wanting locos that negotiate 18 inch radius curves is an issue.  Size of these locomotives makes it hard to design a good model of an ET&WNC 4-6-0 that would take such sharp curves in O scale, for all the same reasons the other manufacturer's On30 K-27 can't comfortably get down to 18 inch radius curves. 

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