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76  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: K-27 Headlight on: October 11, 2007, 11:54:51 PM
Small Pyle headlight (number boards at angle from headlight body) with no visor: 
454 in 1930; 460 in 1930, 1933, 1936; 461 in 1936.   

RGS 455 - no visor:   in 1947, 1948, 1951. 

Happy researching.  Happy Anticipation! 

Charlie Mutschler
77  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: K-27 clarification on: October 08, 2007, 09:54:49 PM
D&RGW 455 never carried the speed script herald ("Flying Rio Grande"), which was implemented after the locomotive was sold to the RGS.  The "bug" herald (the one some people call the 'toilet seat') was used from the mid 1920's until November, 1939 when the speed herald was first applied to equipment.  Many locomotives and cars did not get shopped for several years, so some had the old herald into the 1940's. 

In 1936 the RGS began negotiations to trade their ditcher No. 030 to the D&RGW for a K-27. The deal was finally worked out in September, 1939.  The herald was painted out, but not the lettering "DENVER & RIO GRANDE WESTERN" on the side of the tender.  By July of 1941 No. 455 had the RGS "Sunrise" herald on her tender - as seen in the R. B. Jackson photos used as the endpapers in _Silver San Juan_. 

In November, 1943 No. 455 ran away on Dallas Divide, and was badly damaged.  In 1947 the battered locomotive was rebuilt with the cut down cab and tender tank from a scrapped standard gauge 2-8-0.  This is the "After-the-Wreck" configuration that is much beloved by many.  Personally, I much prefer the 455's appearance circa July, 1941.  However you want your RGS 455, before or after her traumatic experience, it is safe to say that she never carried the flying Rio Grande herald as a D&RGW locomotive.  However, toward the end of operations on the RGS, the rebuilt tender was damaged, (possibly twice?) and 455 operated with tenders borrowed from leased D&RGW 461, and later with the tender borrowed from leased D&RGW 452.  In both cases, 455 had the cut-down standard gauge cab, but a tender with the flying "Rio Grande" herald on the sides, and number 461 or 452 on the rear. 

Are we sufficiently confused yet?  I think I'll look for the pre-accident sunrise herald version if I have a choice.  Or maybe I'll just opt for D&RGW 463 or 464.  The last two to survive. 

Happy modeling. 
Charlie Mutschler
78  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: 1/20.3 K-27 on: September 22, 2007, 12:40:12 AM
Bob writes - "Was there some other RR that used a loco close enough to the K27 that people besides a few Rio Grand fans will buy the Kay?" 

The fifteen prototypes were used by three (3) railroads - six (6) if we include the three tourist railroads that use(d) 463 and 464.  The D&RGW leased several K-27s to the Rio Grande Southern,and eventually sold two of them to the RGS.  Two were also sold to the Nacionales de Mexico.  After being retired, 463 was sold to Gene Autry, and later went to the City of Antonito, which has made her available for use on the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic.  After 464 was retired, it was sold to Knotts Berry Farm, used there briefly while their smaller locomotives underwent an overhaul, and is now used on the Huckleberry RR in Flint, Michigan. 

Kevin's pretty well summed it up - the D&RGW and RGS are popular prototypes, this locomotive is appropriate for both, and there is also the large group of narrow gauge free lance modelers, many of whom like the appearance of the mudhens. 

Cheerfully and enthusiastically anticipating!

Charlie Mutschler
79  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Upon Seeing the new K-27 on: September 08, 2007, 10:38:26 AM
Rich, the Bach-Man has it - the big Class 125 locomotives (later K-27 Class) were bigger than anything else on the D&RG narrow gauge in 1903, and their movement down the track seemed to mimic the waddling gait of the coot duck, or mud hen.  Hence the name.  Now, I don't know if this appearance was due to the outside counterweights, or the poor condition of some of the track, or both.  The Marshall Pass line had to be re-laid with heavier rail to allow their use. 

The "little mudhens" were the three outside frame 2-8-s the D&RG acquired second hand from the Crystal River Railway in 1916, first through lease, then purchase.  Two of these, CR 101 and 102 were twins, and CR 103 was larger.  All were smaller than the Class 125 locos.  In the 1924 D&RGW locomotive reclassification / renumbering, the two smaller locomotives became D&RGW Class C-21, Nos. 360 and 361.  The larger ex CR locomotive became D&RGW Class C-25, No. 375.  All three of these retained their slide valves and Stephenson valve gear.  Nos. 360 and 361 spent virtually their entire careers on the D&RGW based out of Gunnison.  No. 375 started there, but finished her service life based out of Durango. 

The MDC H-On3 kit was advertised as being like the mudhens, but it was something of a compromise.  Much of it utilized parts from standard gauge 'old-timer' locomotive kits MDC had developed.  However, the MDC H-On3 kit had a tender which was a K-27 tender; and the outside frame locomotive came with both outside counterweights and just the cranks, allowing a modeler to choose which prototype he wanted to approximate.  Which is probably a good word here.  The counterweights were correct for the K-27's, the boiler and cab were close to the K-27, the tender as good as the brass ones except for the cast on end ladder, but the engine was too tall, and the drivers, at 38 inches, were a little under the K-27's 40 inch drivers.  However, since many Baldwin outside frame 2-8-0s had 38 or 39 inch drivers, the size was a good compromise.  Several people lowered the boiler, made up the trailing truck and ash pan, and reworked some of the details and came up with a fairly close model of the slide valve Class 125 / K-27.  It was a lot of work, but at the time it seemed reasonable.  Unless you really like the challenge of building, today's modelers have very good quality K-27s available in H-On3, and the MDC kit is probably pretty much a collectable from the past. 

Rebuilding the outside frame kit to resemble the C-21s or many outside frame 2-8-0s required a new, smaller diameter boiler, usually starting with copper or PVC pipe.  The same situation applied for any of the inside frame 2-8-0s one wanted to make from the kit - the boiler was close to correct for the K-27, but too big for most of the 2-8-0s they were trying to approximate.  Yes, I think I have an unbuilt one of each, inside and outside frame in the basement. 

Happy modeling
80  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototype K-27 questions on: September 04, 2007, 11:29:04 PM

I found three on-line sellers listing _The Mudhens:  A Photographic History_, by Dennis O'Berry as in stock and available for purchase.  I didn't keep looking, but the three I looked at included two railroad museum book stores and a firm that specializes in books on railroads.  Also, R Robb's ad in  the May/June 2007 Gazette lists it at $30.00, which is what the other three were offering it for.  So I would say if the publisher and three railroad book sellers are offering it, that you should be able to obtain a copy, though I don't know all the intricacies of international ordering - there may be taxes and higher shipping that I'm not used to seeing on my orders from a popular railroad museum bookstore here in the states. 

Happy anticipating. 

Charlie Mutschler
81  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: 1/20.3 K-27 on: September 04, 2007, 08:39:15 PM
Steve Stockham sez, "Geez guys! I mean c'mon! :Smiley The pictures of the K-27 haven't even been posted in the Gallery for 48 hours and we're already supposed to be clamouring for the EBT Mikado?!!" 

Not to worry Steve, it's not me clamouring for the EBT mikado, just expressing polite interest.  As I say, I'm cheerfully anticipating - visions of mudhens dance in my head, and so on - I have to decide which road numbers to order first.  I am particularly partial to mudhens - probably has something to do with childhood along the Silverton branch.   Smiley  I think the new K-27 is going to be a Grande slam.  I spent a lot of time comparing the photos of the test model to the prototype last night,and I am really, really impressed.  Since I have always loved the pair of 1941 'coming and going' photos of an RGS freight on Dallas Divide with 455 on the smoky end, and caboose 0404 carrying the markers, No. 455 might be a good choice.  And, of course, I remember 464 sitting outside the Durango roundhouse, out of service, as a kid.  Decisions, decisions.  I really can't opt for all seven as a start, enjoyable as it would be.  So I have to narrow the choices down a bit.  But I AM anticipating.  Enthusiastically.

Charlie Mutschler
82  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: 1/20.3 K-27 on: September 04, 2007, 03:24:43 PM
Interesting point about the EBT mikes.  I'd never taken the time to look closely at photos, but, by golly, you are correct.  I noted that one way the other manufacturer's On30 K-27 gets around the sharper curves than their On3 version is the use of blind center drivers on the On30version.  Just like most of the older brass H-On3 mikes. 

So which of the three versions of EBT mike are you promoting?  12?  14 - 15?  16 - 18?  You know that these are all well loved ladies, and there are partisans for each group.  Think carefully, and enlighten us with your answer.   Wink 

Charlie Mutschler
83  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototype K-27 questions on: September 04, 2007, 12:35:00 PM
Thanks for the kind comments.  The real expert on matters relating to mudhens is Dennis O'Berry, author of the book _The Mudhens_, which I recommend to anyone who is a serious modeler of these locomotives.  I've used his book, the multiple volumes of _The R.G.S. Story_ and various documents at the Colorado Railroad Museum in my own study of them. 

A few more quick comments. 

1903 - Baldwin delivers 15 Vauclain compound 2-8-2s to the Denver & Rio Grande.  These are D&RG Class 125, placed in service on Marshall Pass.  As built, all have Stephenson valve gear, wooden pilots, extended smokeboxes, and slope-back tenders.  Apparently engine crews kept trying to run them as simples for extended periods, resulting in increased maintenance costs.  In any case . . .

1907 - D&RG simples first Class 125 loco, most converted to simple with slide valves between 1907 and 1912, but 456 may not have been simpled until 1916. 

1918 - Tenders on all Class 125 locos rebuilt to rectangular pattern for increased water capacity. 

1921 - D&RG re-organized as the Denver & Rio Grande Western.  Capital improvements on the narrow gauge include extensive rebuilding of most freight cars, some locomotives, and orders for two new groups of outside frame 2-8-2s:  The K-28's in 1923, and the K-36's in 1925.  Class 125 improvements include boiler tube pilots and cross compound air pumps. 

1924 - D&RGW re-classifies motive power.  Class 125 becomes class K-27.  First mudhen rebuilds with piston valves. 

1924 - 1925 Nos. 454, 456, 458, 461 rebuilt with piston valves.  According to some documents in the files (but no photos have surfaced yet) these were rebuilt with their old Stephenson valve gear.  The inside canted cylinder blocks were designed for this purpose, with the valves inboard from the centerline of the cylinders.  A success, but within months all four were rebuilt with Walschaerts valve gear. 

1925 - 1929.  The first four conversions were a success, so seven more were modified, but with cylinder  blocks designed for Walschaert valve gear.  These are the outside canted cylinder blocks, the prototypes for the Bachmann Fn3 model.  Nos. 452, 453, 459, 462, 463, and 464. 

Nos. 450, 451, 457, and 460 were never rebuilt with piston valves,retaining slide valves and Stephenson valve gear until they were scrapped in 1939.  Photos indicate that only 460 saw  much service after 1929. 

Sales:  1939 - 455 to RGS; 1941 - 458 and 459 to N de M; 1950 - 461 to RGS; 1955 - 463 to Gene Autrey; 1973 - 464 to Knotts Berry Farm. 

Scrapping: 1939 - 450, 451, 457, 460; 1950 - 456, 462; 1953 - 454, RGS 455 and 461; 1954 - 452, 453.  About 1960 - 458 (NdeM 2251); About 1969 - 459 (NdeM 2250). 

Anticipating - which one do I order first?  I rather like 455 in the pre-wreck sunrise herald, and of course D&RGW and 463 and 464 had long-time Silverton branch assignments, which would be nice. . . decisions, decisions! 
84  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototype K-27 questions on: September 03, 2007, 08:07:02 PM
Matthew (OV), I'm coming in late.  Been at a meeting out of town, and, no, not nearly as much fun as the NNGC in Portland.  Let me try to answer some of your questions. 

1.  Lettering on cab of 455 after 1947 rebuild.  In 1940 the RGS was in danger of folding, and the outbreak of WW II created a demand for narrow gauge equipment elsewhere.  But, the federal government agreed to bail out the RGS in 1941 or 1942 because it needed the line to transport war-important material from the mines, pinto beans, etc.  So, a loan was arranged, with the US Defense Supplies Corporation (a government quasi-public corporation)  buying the rolling stock and leasing it back to the railroad for $1,000 a month until the loan was paid off.  A stencil was applied to many of the locomotives and the geese saying: 


Stencil used with white paint on steam locos, black paint with the geese.  The practice seems to have ended by 1949, I don't think No. 74 ever had this stencil applied.  Late photos of 455 and 461 do not seem to have the stencil regarding DSC ownership. 

2.  Pilot plow.  These were used on some of the K-27s relatively late in their service lives, and frequently on the K-28, K-36, and K-37 class, with the C&TS and D&SNG still utilizing these plows.  The boiler tube pilot was un-bolted from the pilot beam, and the wedge plow bolted on in its place.  On the larger K's it was necessary to cut holes for the ends of the pilot beam in the plow, but not so for the mudhens.  The RGS left the big pilot plow on 455 at the end of operations.  There was a large patch welded in it, suggesting there had been an altercation with a rock or other large, more or less unyielding object. 

3.  Lights.  The D&RGW and the RGS both turned locomotives rather than running tender first in road service.  Work trains might require extended backing, but normally, only switchers had back up lights.  Later, virtually all locomotives received lights on the rear of the tender for use backing.  Another point about modeling this feature:  Until the 1960's there was no requirement to have the headlight on during the day.  So, the fireman would not want to shovel more coal than he had to, and the light was left off during daytime.  Check the old movies on video.  Stuff taken in the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's - the light tends to be dark during the daytime.  Why waste fuel?  So for one modeling the RGS, it probably isn't appropriate to run with the headlight on in the broad daylight. 

4.  K's and other outside frame 36 inch gauge locos. 

The K-27's.  D&RG bought 15 Class 125's - later D&RGW Class K-27.  Excepting those leased to the RGS, the D&RGW owned them all - but sold 458 and 459 to the Nacionales de Mexico in 1941.  No 455 went to the RGS in 1939, and 461 to the RGS shortly before it suspended operations.  Uintah 30 was somewhat similar, but had slide valves and Walschaert valve gear its entire life. 

The K-28's.  ALCO, 1923.   Seven went to the  US Army in 1942 as USA 250 - 256 for use on the White Pass & Yukon.  All were cut up at the end of the war.  The surviving three are now property of the Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge.  The Oahu Railway & Land Co. had four very similar locomotives, but while the engines were mechanically near twins, the locomotives differed from the D&RGW's:  OR&L burned oil, and had a shorter turntable at Honolulo than the D&RGW had, so the tenders were a little shorter.  Visually, the big difference was the use of air pumps on the fireman's side of the boiler, and conventional round smoke box doors.  One survived until 1966, when it was cut up. 

The K-36's.  Baldwin, 1925.  Both the C&TS and D&SNG treat their K-36's as the backbone of their motive power fleet.  Baldwin build very similar looking mikes for the International Railways of Central America, but IRCA burned oil.  IRCA also bought outside frame mikes from Porter and also from Krupp.  The German knock-offs were very similar, but had
European style bells, unlike the Baldwin and Porter locos. 

The K-37's.  The D&RGW looked at narrow gauge articulateds, but money was tight, and the railroad was in receivership.  Rebuilding ten standard gauge 2-8-0s as narrow gauge locomotives with running gear mechanically identical to the K-36's seemed like an inexpensive way to add more motive power.  The D&SNG restored No. 497, found it was hard on the track, and traded her to the C&TS.  Which could use the extra tractive effort, but found that - she was hard on the track.   

I think ALCO may have built some meter gauge 2-8-2s similar to the K-28s for export to South America.  South America had some rather large 36 inch and meter gauge inside frame locomotives built by Baldwin and others.  That includes 36 inch gauge 4-8-2s for use in Colombia, meter gauge 2-10-2's in Brazil, meter gauge 2-10-4's in Brazil, and 2-6-6-2's in Brazil.  ALCO built 36 inch gauge inside frame  simple 2-6-6-2's for N de M, none survived. 

The mudhens will be very welcome.  Anticipating cheerfully,

Charlie Mutschler
85  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: 1/20.3 K-27 on: August 29, 2007, 10:26:10 PM
Outstanding!!! I will be eagerly placing my order.  More railroad equals less lawn.  I love that concept.  At long last, something to pull my post 1920 Colorado NG freight cars.  A string of the new Bachmann tank cars behind her should look quite at home on the Farmington branch, or the oil trains on the RGS before the Ames slide cut the Farmington - Montrose oil traffic.  Or a few of the tanks with the usual box and gon mix on Cumbres, the Silverton branch, etc.  YES indeed!  Beautiful.  I hope you guys sell a train load. 

Charlie Mutschler
86  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: On 30 turntable on: August 13, 2007, 12:23:24 AM
 Shocked  At fifteen inches, that turntable will barely, and I mean JUST barely hold any of the D&RGW mikes in O scale.  The D&RGW installed a 65 foot turntable in Durango for these larger locomotives, it is still in use by the Durango & Silverton.  That's 16.25 inches in O scale. 

Total wheel base and total length over coupler knuckles for the K-s

K-27  51'0 1/2" wheel base, 60'9 3/8" overall length.
K-28  53' 6" wheel base, 63' 10 1/2" overall length. 
K-36  58' 7 3/4" wheel base, 68' 0 3/4" overall length. 
K-37  56' 1 13/16" wheel base, 65' 2 15/16" overall length. 

Even with a 65 foot turn table, the K-36 class overhangs each end of the Durango turn table by a foot and a half.  I don't have figures for the EBT 2-8-2's, but I suspect they are a little longer than the D&RGW locos, if nothing else because they have 48 inch diameter drivers instead of 40 inch (K-27) or 44 inch (K-28, K-36, K-37) drivers. 

Happy modeling. 

Charlie Mutschler

87  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototypes vs. Models (WP&YR and Uintah) on: August 13, 2007, 12:10:19 AM
Interesting post, Stan.  Going by the published roster in Ferrell's _Tweetsie Country_, I come up with Nos. 10, 11, 12, and 14 being mechanically identical.  16 x 22 inch cylinders, 45 inch drivers.  The Baldwin erecting cards would be helpful in clearing things up. 

Nos. 8, Second 8, and 9 were also Baldwin 4-6-0's, but these were smaller - 15 x 22 inch cylinders, 45 inch drivers. 

Interesting, and worth more study. 

88  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototypes vs. Models (WP&YR and Uintah) on: August 10, 2007, 04:20:15 PM
Several years ago the WP&Y leased No. 40 from the Georgetown Loop Railroad, to give them a second steam locomotive for use with tourist trains in the summer months.  At the time the enthusiast press reported the lease was for several years - five sticks in my mind, but don't quote me.  This did not occur, and the WP&Y ended the lease sooner than the expected period, and returned No. 40 to the Georgetown Loop.  Around this time the WP&Y acquired WP&Y No. 69 back from the Stuhr Museum in Nebraska, where it had been operated some years before. 

Nos. 40 and 44 were originally built for use in central America, were purchased in the late 1960's by the Ashbys, who were the initial concessionaires for the Georgetown Loop, and were never used in Alaska during their regular service lives.  No. 69 spent her entire pre-tourist railroad career on the WP&Y, then went to the Keystone Central tourist railroad in South Dakota, and from there to the Stuhr Museum.  When the Colorado Historical Society decided to select a new concessionaire, the Ashby and Greska families, who had successfully operated the railroad for 30 years were not selected, and they needed to remove their equipment from the Georgetown Loop railroad.  This is why much of it is now at the Colorado Railroad Museum, where the photos of No. 40 were taken. 

I'm sure there are other aspects of why decisions were made, and plans changed, but that's really not the subject of this forum. 

Short answer:  Scale models of WP&Y locomotives in 1:22 or 1:20.3 are not common, and some models in either scale may be more accurate than others.  Bachmann's "Annie" 4-6-0 works well as a starting point for a 1:22 model of the two ex ET&WNC 4-6-0s used briefly on the White Pass & Yukon.  If you want the Baldwin 70 series 2-8-2s, I believe another firm offered one.  Seven of the D&RGW K-28 class 2-8-2s were requisitioned for use on the WP&Y by the US Army.  Another vendor has offered this in brass, which would be  easy to reletter  and renumber as USA 250 - 256. 

Charlie Mutschler
Who continues to anticipate Mudhens . . .
89  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: K27 on: July 31, 2007, 10:56:57 AM
Steve, you are quite right - this is the one worth anticipating.  Consider how the K-27 will look with a string of the new tank cars - the RGS oil trains before the Ames slide cut the line and re-routed the Farmington crude oil traffic off the RGS. 

Patiently anticipating
Charlie Mutschler
90  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Positive comments on the 4-4-0! Thanks Mr. Riley and The Bachmann! on: July 29, 2007, 06:01:27 PM
The pre-production models look very close to the little Mt. Gretna 4-4-0s, and also to some 4-4-0s built for 24 and 30 inch railroads in Mexico and south America.  I would think this will be a very popular little mill for the people modeling 24 and 30 inch prototypes, especially outside the USA - or the guy who wants to exercise a little modelers license and add one to his 'what if' Maine two footer.  Unlike the Baldwin 8-18C, this should negotiate the 18 inch radius curves on a lot of On30 model railroads, especially the free-lance ones.  I expect a lot of happy free lance purchasers, including the people who are doing On30 as an inexpensive alternative to On2. 

These little machines really were "cute," if one dares apply such a term to a large object like a locomotive. 
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