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91  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototypes vs. Models (WP&YR and Uintah) on: July 29, 2007, 01:55:53 AM
Royal Gorge 40 was originally built for the International Railways of Central America (IRCA), a United Fruit Co. subsidiary.  Baldwin supplied a large number of 36 inch gauge outside frame locomotives for use in Mexico, central, and south America.  The early outside frame 2-8-0s were all equipped with Stephenson valve gear, and had the counterweights cast on the driver centers, like inside frame locomotives.  The later ones had the large counterweights outside on the cranks. 

Baldwin built IRCA Nos. 35 - 44 between 1912 and 1921.  All were equipped with 38 inch drivers, 16 x 20 inch cylinders, and weighed 93,400 pounds.  As built they had slide valves and Walschaert valve gear.  At some point the IRCA rebuilt them with piston valves, resulting in the locomotive you see in RG 40. 

A large number of outside frame 2-8-0s were operated by the Nacionales de Mexico, including ones built by Baldwin, ALCO, and Kerr-Stewart (Great Britain). 
92  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototypes vs. Models (WP&YR and Uintah) on: July 29, 2007, 01:39:16 AM
Uintah's roster included several inside frame 2-8-0s, an outside frame 2-8-2, and an inside frame 2-8-2 - all of which were too rigid for use on Baxter Pass, and operated either on the far side of the pass, or from Mack to Atchee.  The little 0-6-2T passenger locomotives and the 2-6-6-2T's could negotiate the curves on Baxter Pass, as could the Shays. 

All of the Uintah's Shays were two truck (B Class) Shays.  By weight: 
37 Tons - Uintah 1.
45 Tons - Uintah 2, 3, 4, 5. 
50 Tons - Uintah 6, 7. 

No. 7 is of some historical interest - a Lima Shay without a Lima builder's plate.  She was constructed in the Uintah's Atchee shop from spare parts on hand, plus a boiler ordered from Lima specifically to complete her. 
93  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Prototypes vs. Models (WP&YR and Uintah) on: July 29, 2007, 01:28:17 AM
ET&WNC had four Baldwin 4-6-0s which appear to have been mechanically identical:  Nos. 10, 11, 12, and 14.  Two of them, Nos. 10 and 14, were requisitioned by the US Army for use on the White Pass in 1942, and they were used for a brief period.  Both were in the Whitehorse, YT engine house when it burned in December, 1943, and were too badly damaged for repair.  After the war ended, both were shipped south with the other equipment the WP&Y chose not to purchase, and were scrapped.  Since ET&WNC 12 is the prototype for the Bachmann Annie, you could get a 1:22 model of any of the four (ET&WNC 10, 11, 12, 14) out of it.  The White Pass & Yukon lettering is correct for Nos. 10 and 14, though many of the other locomotives owned by the Army were lettered USA. 

WP&Y had several outside frame 2-8-0s, but No. 69 was the one with Walschaert valve gear and slide valves.  No. 69 still exists, and is much, much larger than the Bachmann 2-8-0, which is based on a smaller 30 inch gauge prototype.  WP&Y 69 is a very large 36 inch gauge locomotive, probably not something that could easily be made out of the Bachmann locomotive without extraordinary effort.  Depending on how close you are willing to live with, yes, the WP&Y had outside frame Baldwin 2-8-0s.  Most had Stephenson valve gear.  The Bachmann 2-8-0 has the Baker-Pilliod vavle gear which is correct for the prototype, but which was not common on narrow gauge locomotives built by Baldwin.  Again, depending on how close you want to come, you may be able to get something that works.  People have rebuilt the Bachmann 2-8-0 into 1:22 scale D&RGW K-27's, which is a heck of a lot of work! 
94  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Quanity of freight cars on: July 14, 2007, 01:15:18 AM
This becomes a very complex subject.  The simple answer is that with steep grades and sharp curves, trains were pretty short on most narrow gauge railroads.  However, the answers above give some good guidance:  look at what the prototype's rated tonnage that it could pull on a given grade, and then start adding the weights of the cars.  Empty cars weigh less than loaded cars, so the locomotive will pull more empties than loads.  Don't overlook the caboose in calculating your tonnage. 

However, there is a lot of variance in car size.  For instance, the Bachmann box car is a nice model of an Ohio River & Western prototype, which had a light weight of 6.25 tons, and a capacity of 8 tons.  Total for a loaded car 14.25 tons.  The common 30 foot long cars built by American Car & Foundry and others that were typical on the post 1903 Colorado lines were much larger.  The D&RGW 3000 series box cars have a light weight of 11.3 tons, and a capacity of 25 tons, so a loaded car would be 36.3 tons. 

Working from the tonnage ratings for the D&RGW C-16 class, and the D&RGW C-17 class, one can probably get an approximation for the pulling power of the prototype of the Bachmann 2-8-0.  Realize that this is an approximation - the prototype was rated at 17,000 pounds tractive effort, but was a 30 inch gauge locomotive, and I am using ratings for 36 inch gauge locomotives.  On level track it might pull 1,150 tons.  That equals 80 of the Ohio River & Western cars, or 31 of the D&RGW 3000 series box cars.  Subtract a car for the caboose - it's an incredibly long train.  But on a 2% grade this is greatly reduced, and on a 4% grade a C-16 class 2-8-0 is rated at only 79 tons.  That's barely two loads, and no caboose, or 5 empties and a caboose on the D&RGW; using the OR&W cars it's 5 loads or 12 empties.  Subtract one car in place of the caboose.   

The Bachmann 2-6-0 is a beautiful model of C&S 2-6-0's Nos. 21 and 22, which were rated at 395 tons on the nearly level line immediately west of Denver.  That would be 26 of the loaded OR&W cars plus a caboose.  On the 4% grades the C&S rated these two at 80 tons - nominally the same as a C-16, but I suspect that in reality it's about 4 of the OR&W loads, or 1 of the 36.3 ton loads plus one caboose. 

Bigger power?  The K-27s were rated at 183 tons on the 4% grades.  Thats 4 and a half of the 36.3 ton loads, plus a caboose on a 4% grade, 12 loads and a caboose on a 2% grade, and on level track 55 loads plus a caboose. 

I hope that helps -


95  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Forney rail sizes on: July 08, 2007, 09:24:24 AM
Roger, I have used code 70 rail in On3, and it looks good.  I think it comes out close to the height of 30 to 35 pound rail, which is typical of that used on a lot of early narrow gauge lines.     I think code 55 would be very light - possibly scaling out to a height appropriate for 18 - 20 pound rail.  That is a weight of rail used on light mine tramways, but is probably too light for most steam worked lines.  Though Bachmann's model of the tiny Porter 0-4-0T would be quite at home on such light rail.  If it was my layout, I would use code 70 rail for my track for use with the Forney.  In any case, use what you think is appropriate, because it is your railroad.  Happy modeling. 
96  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Tunnel size on: June 28, 2007, 08:52:44 PM
Good one Kevin - that 10" portal should even accommodate the anticipated motive power.  Who knows - that might even allow passage of an EBT 16?  Smiley

97  Discussion Boards / On30 / Re: Coupler setup on Bachmann On30 cars completely wrong! on: March 24, 2007, 09:53:37 PM
I suspect the coupler height was not as optional as all that after 1903 or so.  That is when the Safety Appliance Act took effect for all equipment used in interstate service.  Which did not apply for a lot of narrow gauges, but did for others - including the ET&WNC, and, of course, the Colorado / New Mexico operations of the D&RG and the lines connecting to it.  According to the copy of the federal safety appliances and power brakes regs I have, the standard height for drawbars for narrow gauge (presumably 36 inch gauge) was  and is 26 inch maximum, 23 inch minimum.  For two foot gauge railroads (listed following "narrow gauge" railroads) the drawbar height is given as maximum 17.5 inches, minimum 14.5 inches. 

Happy modeling all, regardless of where you place your couplers. 
98  Discussion Boards / Large / Re: Florence & Cripple Creek box car on: February 03, 2007, 03:44:51 PM
Early on, the 22.5 box car that approximated a 30 foot car came in F&CC.  There was also an F&CC version of the gondola in both the 22.5 nominal 30 foot car and the 20.3 nominal 20 foot gondola. 

I am looking forward to seeing the new Fn3 F&CC box car, which looks great in the views we have seen on the board.  Now I just want to see how mine looks compared to the photos of the prototype. 

Charlie Mutschler Grin
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