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Author Topic: The Delaware and Hudson  (Read 4237 times)
panniertankboy8751


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« on: July 07, 2011, 11:18:13 AM »

Hey all,

I know the D&H isn't as celebrated a railroad as say, the UP or NYC, but still, i thought there should be a place for listing prototype information, history, etc.   Grin
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mabloodhound


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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 12:45:53 PM »

A simple Google search provided this link:   http://www.bridge-line.org/
Plus many other links to photos and history.
Try Google, you'll like it Grin
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Dave Mason

D&G RR (Dunstead & Granford) in On30
 In matters of style, swim with the current;
 in matters of principle, stand like a rock.   Thos. Jefferson

The 2nd Amendment, Americas 1st Homeland Security
jward


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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 12:54:20 PM »

perhaps you are 20 years too late. the d&h with its exotic motive power gathered alot of attention in the 1970s and 1980s as an island in a sea of conrail blue. its history was rather tumultuous during the 1980s, and eventually it wound up as a part of cp rail.

did you know that in  the 1960s and 1970s d&h, along with the erie lackawanna, were owned by the norfolk & western?
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Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
panniertankboy8751


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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 06:16:24 PM »

A simple Google search provided this link:   http://www.bridge-line.org/
Plus many other links to photos and history.
Try Google, you'll like it Grin

Thanks, I actually have known of that site for quite some time now.
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richg
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 07:16:11 PM »

I have had a book for some years by Jim Shaughnessy, Delaware & Hudson, The Bridge Line to New England & Canada. Hours of good reading. Those hard coal fire boxes on the steames where huge. I have the soft cover book.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=jim+shaughnessy+delaware+and+hudson&x=21&y=15

Rich
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Guilford Guy


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« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 07:09:15 AM »

As Jeff said EL and the D&H were owned by NW subsidiary DERECO. The D&H provided a new market to eastern Canada as well as what could have been a direct connection to the B&M and the New England market. Unfortunately DERECO never took in the B&M, and the D&H and EL were spun off. The D&H was later picked up by Tim Mellon's Guilford Rail Systems, who made a big splash in the railroad world after deregulation. Mellon hoped to reach Chicago and tap into industrial market in the rest of the northeast. An unwanted child, Mellon let the D&H go a few years later, sucking much out of the company. When on it's own it was left with a hodgepodge of poorly maintained locomotives and trackage that had seen few capital improvements. It didn't make matters any better than the Colonie Shops, the main repair shops for D&H locomotives, had been mothballed by Guilford. After struggling through bankruptcy and temporary operators (New York, Susquehanna, & Western operated it for a few years after Guilford) Canadian Pacific stepped in. Sadly their 1990s trackwork was the first major work done on the route in decades. There are still a few D&H "heritage units" on the CP. These are GP38-2s that received the lightning stripe paint in the 1990s, I believe under CP ownership.
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Alex

jward


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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 08:38:40 AM »

it is interesting to note that when guilford let the d&H go, they managed to suck up d&h's newest and best locomotives, the 40 gp39-2s. and then let them go, to be replaced by gp35s and gp40s. this is probably the only case of a railroad replacing the improved dash two locomotives with the original, unimproved model.

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Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
Guilford Guy


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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 09:05:09 AM »

The GP35s were a mistake and have since been retired/scrapped (along with the cool old power like SD45s SD39s SD26s and GP7s). The GP40s were purchased from Conrail very cheaply. Though the GP39-2s were newer and had more advanced electrical, the GP40s had 3000 horsepower compared to 2300. Guilford still uses almost the entire fleet of GP40s, including several of New York Central heritage.
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Alex

jward


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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 09:43:11 AM »

guilford was always looking for the cheap way out. that is why they also lease returned the b&m gp40-2s. most of guilford's locomotive purchases were mistakes, locomotives cast off by other railroads due to high operating costs. imteresting that of the locomotives b&M and d&H bought new, gp38-2, gp39-2, gp40-2 that guilford let go. most have found new homes on major railroads. they know a bargain when they see it.
of the locomotives guilford bought secondhand, there were no takers other than scrapyards.

as for the gp39-2s not being as capable as a gp40 due to horsepower, that only comes into play if your track is good enough to take advantage of the extra speed the increased horsepower makes possible. a gp39-2 of comparable weight to a gp40 (the nyc gp40s were 267,600 lbs vs 276, 200 lbs for b&m 350-369, gp39-2s) will have similar tractive effort, and can start and pull similar weight trains. the gp40 will do it faster due to the increased hp, but on a 25 mph railroad that wouldn't be a factor.....
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Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
Guilford Guy


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« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2011, 10:52:34 AM »

When Guilford bought the B&M properties everything was still 40mph. Trains moved at a reasonable pace until the strike, when the system pretty much fell to pieces. Today, fortunately, Pan Am and NS are both pumping large amount of cash into bringing the trackage back up to a competitive level. For the first time since the 1980s trains are cruising at 40mph again, a big improvement from the mess of 10s and 25s.  That is interesting about the tractive effort. Back then there was such an assortment of power it is surprising they didn't keep the locomotives with which the mechanical department had the most experience with. Today they're attempting to standardize on 645 engines and 3000 hp with GP40s, GP40-2Ws, and SD40-2s. Funny how the -2 electrical hardware is something they're now using. This standardizing is essentially what killed off the "cool" locomotives, and back in the day all the "cool" power came from everywhere as hand-me-downs to displace what had been a fairly uniform roster.

Back to the D&H... Delaware-Lackawanna still uses three former D&H RS-3s, painted up in the black and yellow scheme in which they were delivered. The latest unit they've acquired 4068, started off with that number before being sold to the Lamoille Valley in the 1970s as their 7801. When the LVRC closed in 1995 it found it's way to a Canadian tourist railroad before finally winding up back in home territory.
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Alex

jward


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« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2011, 11:46:11 AM »

it is good that the b&m is making a resurgance. notice what power they are picking up now. the sd40-2 is probably the best designed diesel ever built, with the gp38-2 a close second.

we as railfans often forget that those older "cool" locomotives are operational nightmares. the older ge units are a classic example. those u33b's that b&m picked up were worn out pieces of crap that had a tendency to burn rails when they stayed running. the sd45s were notorious fuel hogs, and the gp35s got their extra horsepower only through an amazingly complicated electrical system.  the dash two series, on the other hand, had replaced much of the older circuitry with solid state, modular components. it's like the circuit boards in modern electronic equipment on a much larger scale. add to that the inherent fuel efficiency of a 12 cylinder engine (gp39-2) over a 16 cylinder one (gp40) in a service where the added hp couldn't be utilized and you really have to wonder if they had a clue what they were doing.

the cool old locomotives that worked well have always found a home. that's why there are so many gp7s and gp9s in various forms working on shortlines all over north america.

as for the d&h and alcos. d&h, like the canadian roads, knew alcos well enough to get the most out of them. a strong argument can be made that 251 powered alcos were better designed than ge u series locomotives. that is why the surviving alcos are sought out on the used marketplace while most of the u boats have long since been scrapped. the railfan part of me misses the u25bs and u28bs that used to be common in my area, but i am glad when i worked with the railroad i didn't have to deal with them.
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Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
Guilford Guy


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« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 04:59:52 PM »

Yes the SD26s and GP7s were tired. Pan Am has been pulling surprises though. They now have two FP9s that they are rebuilding with 645 blocks for use on the business train. In addition, they have plans for 3 heritage schemes on 3 of the remaining GP9s used in yard and local service. I look forward to seeing B&M maroon, blue, and MEC gold geeps on the system.

D&H had the right location to take advantage of ALCo. In fact, I believe the D&H must have played a part in moving the majority of new locomotives from the ALCo plant in Schenectady to the owners. Had ALCo not been located on the D&H system, it's quite possible they would have far more EMD locomotives rostered (or may have never rostered the challengers?). As a side note, ALCo/FM still exists building marine and locomotive diesel engines, though most of the newly manufactured 251 engines are used in Australia.
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Alex

jward


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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 05:32:46 PM »

i think pan am has been able to make a go of it because they finally have somebody with deep pockets backing them who is determined to make the former b&m a viable railroad again, along with the d&h south of albany. what you are seeing there is similar to what they did with kansas city southern on the meridian speedway. norfolk southern upgrades a connecting road's line that extends its reach to say dallas or boston. in return for the upgrades, they become part owner of the upgraded line. ns already directs a significant amount of traffic to the d&h at sunbury, pa headed for boston, albany and montreal. these are places otherwise not on their system.

let's face it, since the new haven (actually penn central) abandoned the maybrook line the b&m and the Boston & albany now owned by csx are the only competitive routes to new england from the west.

wish they'd paint one of the gp9s into maine central green......
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Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
Woody Elmore

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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 06:52:56 PM »

The diesels on the D&H were interesting but I'll take one of their big northerns any time! They also had very different looking cabooses.

As a teenager I once travelled to Ottawa from Grand Central Terminal in NYC. I rode in a D&H coach which had seen better days. It was an interesting adventure. The Canadian motive power at the time was painted in classic colors - maroon and grey of the CP and CN olive. Loved those engines.
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