advice for newbie to DCC

[jsdranger]

Which locomotive, of the below, is an ideal starting point for a newbie to DCC. 
and can you recommend a DCC control system as well to control the train.  Also, can DCC controllers control a locomotive that does not have a DCC chip in it?

G67628 Athearn HO Genesis FP-45 SF/Freight #5941 w/DCC & Sound

G67602 Athearn HO Genesis F45 SF/Pinstripe #1936 w/ DCC & Sound

HO RTR B23-7 w/DCC & Sound SF #6396

PROTO 2000 HO Scale Diesel EMD E7A Powered with Sound and DCC 920-40972

[ACY]

Also, can DCC controllers control a locomotive that does not have a DCC chip in it?

Most DCC systems cannot control analog or DC locomotives (ore as you said locomotives without a DCC decoder). Although a few systems can it is a bad idea and should only be done for short periods of time and infrequently. If you leave a DC loco on DCC track or run it for a long duration it can overheat, melt, and cause other damage to the locomotive perhaps leading to it never running again. So, in short avoid doing this if at all possible.

[Doneldon]

ranger-

It's hard to answer your questions without more information (except the one about controlling a non-DCC loco with a DCC system - No, unless you are using the Bachmann EZ DCC system). What makes this hard is that we don't know anything about you or your interests. If you just want to run a couple of trains now and then, with minimal investment and no need for versatility we'd give you one answer, but if you are looking to join the hobby and plan to stay with it long term we'd suggest something else. Other parameters which would help us give you good suggestions include: finances; scale choice (HO, O, etc.); interest in sound, technical skills; age; area and location of your proposed model railroad (e.g., a 4x8 plywood table in a spare room, a small shelf switching layout in a den or bedroom, a circle of track around the Christmas tree, a whole basement or attic full of trains, a large scale model railroad in the back yard); expansion plans for the future; modern style or vintage setting; whether you enjoy tackling complicated problems or prefer to throw a little money at them for your own peace of mind; whether you prefer steam, diesel or electric prototypes; and any other preferences or plans. I'm sure you can see how such matters might affect how someone might answer your questions.

I'm not trying to dodge your question,by the way, just looking for more information so the various people who see your question have what they, and I, need to give meaningful responses. And that's another thing: What you will receive are opinions. Try as we might not to, model railroaders are as likely as anyone to have their (my) opinions influenced by our own model railroading experiences. So you won't get Gospel or some objectively "right" answer. Accordingly, use the opinions to guide your decisions but don't let the opinions be your decisions. You will be the General Manager, CEO and Road Foreman of Engines which allows you to do whatever you want with your railroad, as long as the Superintendant of Real Estate approves your plans (assuming you have a life mate in your home). It's been said that there's a prototype for everything and my experience tells me that's probably true, so remember that only you make decisions about your model empire and the trains which run on it.

Welcome to the hobby! And don't forget to have fun.
                                                                            -- D

[jsdranger]

Doneldon,
Thanks for the info and looking for more information to better help me and my new found interest.  

I am currently creating a HO scale set on a 5x8 sheet with intentions of expanding when i get more room to expand.  I dont have a ideal proposed railroad but in time i am hoping to run multiple types of trains on one layout.  Right now my track consists of 2 sets of tracks.  an outer loop which is for the most part just flat.  in time when i expand, this line will be for a commuter train, amtrak or acela type trains.  the inner track is a mountain pass that i am running many cars on, so there i would need a relatively strong engine that can climb the mountains.  there are elevation changes, a bridge and home made tunnel on the layout currently and a couple lakes  The finances are a great question as since i am just getting into it i would like to find something that doesnt break the bank.  i see that there are many options ranging from the cheap to the expensive.  right now i am leaning more towards middle of the road and as i continue to grow in the hobby i will continue to upgrade the products i have

the trains i am looking for are going to be diesel, the more modern style i guess.  i like the old looking ones but for the layout i intend to put together i think the newer styles are going to be better for me.

where the sound is concerned, i would like to hear the sound of it moving and the horn, nothing to fancy really.  just enough to peak my sons interest, and for me to have some fun and relax while running and creating the scenery around the track

in time i am hopgin that i have a nice layout with better than 4 or 5 trains running at one given time, with some side rails for parking the unused trains.

Based on what i described above, whould this loco and controler be a good choice for me - EZ Command DCC System/Loco, CHSY 

I hope that answers your questions

Thanks in advance for all your help

[jsdranger]

ACY

you say running trains on a DC or DCC track.  I am not sure that i understand this. 

Do you mean a DC track is this because of the pack that is plugged into the track which carries the current from the outlet, into the power pack that than transfers the power to the track?

And than the DCC would be the same principle.

Are they different currents being used, AC vs DC that propels the trains?  If that is the case each train, be it a DC or DCC train are set to run with a specific current?

Thanks in advance for the help

[ACY]

In am saying do not run DC trains with a DCC system, only 2 systems support that feature, the E-Z Command and a competitors. But they are both basic systems, and have limited functions and capabilities. So if you have a lot of old DC engines DCC may not be for you, if they are DCC ready (8/9 pin socket) then you can convert them easily. If you do not have any locos yet just buy DCC locos because when you upgrade you'll be ready and won't have to do a ton of conversions.

[jsdranger]

ACY,

Purchasing ready to run DCC locos was the idea i was looking at.  I dont want the hassle of having to modify existing trains and felt it would be less of a headache to just purchase DCC with the effects i want already built in.

Once purchased i want to run these new trains on the existing track with a DCC controller.  I was thinking about the e-z command controller since it is from bachmann and that is currently the tracks i am using. 

[Doneldon]

ranger-

Great! You made our job much easier. Your statement about the" middle of the road" is a significant one. It says a great deal about what you're looking for: neither basic toy level nor the whole Santa Fe from Chicago to Los Angeles.

You have a plethora of options in the middle of the DCC market. Bachmann's Dynamis is a good entry system for someone who needs more versatility, power and expandability that what the EZ-DCC provides. You might also consider the offerings from NCE, Digitrax and Lenz. I've upgraded my grandson's EZ-DCC to the NCE system because it offers much more versatility and power. For example, we can fully program his locomotives, not just set loco number and which end is the front. His expansion options are for all practical considerations, limitless. He can add as much power as he can imagine, read variables back from his locos, operate turnouts, line series of turnouts, go wireless with IR or radio ... you get the idea. There are similar systems from the other manufacturers. I picked NCE because the price was the best one when I purchased; it might or might not be that way when you buy. I also liked that the NCE human/cyborg interface (read throttle) seemed to be a little less complex. That was important when the main user turned 11 only yesterday.

Several things seem important with the layout you are describing: trains on the outer level loop, mountainous railroading in the middle and off-the-board expansion options. All of that can certainly be accommodated. With a five foot width, you can use relatively generous curves on the outer loop, radii in the range of 26" - 28". That should accommodate any locomotives outside of very few extremely large older brass steamers. You can also run cars of any length, right up to 85' passenger cars and today's largest autoloaders and container cars. The Acela will look super. Don't rule out the possibility of running your mainline through the middle of your layout. That can permit reverse loops so your trains can run both directions and let you use some of the real estate in the middle for towns, yards and/or stations. Off-table access should be easy to do later if you choose to do so. You might also consider a twice-around plan. This is like a figure eight except the two loops either parallel one another, crossing at grade, or one loop climbs up and over the other. Elevation changes are really neat to watch and this would not be a difficult pike to build. You can easily build what's called an empties in / loads out set up which is tons of fun and very surprising for visitors. I strongly suggest that you consider a physical link with the center branch line so your outer mainline can both deliver cars which need to go up the mountain and pick up cars which are on their way elsewhere.

Your inner section does have a few hurdles, but none impose major problems. You will obviously have sharper curves than what works for the outer loop. I suggest that you use no tighter curves than 18" radius. Lots of equipment can negotiate such curves at reasonable speeds; that's not at all true with sharper curves like 15" radius. You'll be able to run most diesel locomotives with four wheel trucks, freight cars up to 40' - 50' long, and shortie passenger cars (60' max, shorter is better). Perhaps you'll have a few short line trains which exist just to get people up to work at the mines and logging operations on the mountain. Or maybe they serve a resort on one of your lakes. Such trains could operate as proper passenger trains, as mixed trains which offer both freight and passenger service, or as self-contained units like the Galloping Geese on the old D&RGW RR. You might include a section in the high country which is served by switchbacks rather than a straight track. Switchbacks are fun, visually impressive and lots of fun to run. Maybe this is where an old geared steamer takes over because the curves and grades are just too tough for new-fangled motive power and the businesses up there couldn't support a new loco anyway. I see a Shay, perhaps, or another geared loco or maybe a 2-8-2 Mudhen Mikado. Keep in mind that it will be 30" from the edge of your layout to the middle so you don't want to concentrate operations right in the middle. Thirty inches may not sound like much but it is right at the limit for reaching problems without damaging things closer to the edges.

Keep in touch with this bulletin board as you plan and build your layout; there's a wealth of expertise here. And be open to other ideas. For example, someone, me included, might remind you that you need a pretty big space for a 5'x9' table layout. That's basically a ping-pong table and, just as in ping-pong, a model railroad needs space around the table. You don't need as much as ping-pong would require but two feet all around is the absolute minimum clearance you need. That translates to a 9'x13' space. Eleven feet by 15' or larger would be strongly preferred. Keep in mind that you're going to have walk-around throttles so space for a chair and a control panel won't cut it. You can get much more model railroading in an around the walls layout which leaves the middle of the room open or has a peninsula extending into the room. That set up will pretty much mean the room is a dedicated railroad room. I have no idea how that would work with the powers that be at your house, but you'll be dominating the room with a 5'x9' table, too. One last pitch for around the room: you can build your layout on more than one level which gives you double or triple the square footage of railroad without increasing the footprint.

I hope you noticed my imagining the purposes of your railroad, the stuff like trains to the mines, empties in, etc. I believe you'll have a lot of fun cooking up your railroad's raison d'etre. More important, it will help you design your layout to fit the needs you establish with your narration rather than building some tracks and then asking yourself why they are there. It's true that railroads made and ruined many towns in the 1800s, but the fact remains that the lines were planned to serve anticipated needs for transportation. Model railroad planning best proceeds The same way.
                                                                   -- D

[Jim Banner]

In am saying do not run DC trains with a DCC system, only 2 systems support that feature, the E-Z Command and a competitors (sic). But they are both basic systems, and have limited functions and capabilities.

ACY,
I would not call a system that can control up to 128 throttles and 128 locomotives at once, puts out 8 amps of current without an external booster, can do mixed mode consisting on multi levels (nesting,) can control 30 function outputs, uses wired throttles, infrared throttles, and radio throttles (both simplex and duplex,) uses transponding to keep track of your trains, programs on the mainline, programs and reads back CV''s on a separate programming track in 3 different modes, works with the JMRI computer suite, can throw switches and sets of switches, and runs dc as well as DCC locomotives, I would not call a basic system with limited functions and capabilities.

ranger
If you wish to run a dc locomotive on a DCC powered track, watch carefully that it does not over heat.  Stop it frequently and feel the temperature with your fingers.  Turn it over and feel the temperature of the metal bottom.  If it is uncomfortably warm, it is already too hot.  ACY is correct that a dc locomotive may over heat and sustain permanent damage if left sitting stopped on a DCC powered track.  And this may happen is as little as 10 minutes.  Running dc trains on a DCC powered track is a different matter.   The flow of air through a moving motor will help cool it, particularly if you are running shorter than normal trains on flat track.  If you are pulling the maximum number of cars the locomotive can pull and particularly if you are pulling them up hills, you may over heat even a moving locomotive to the point of damaging it.  Besides, you will have more fun with your locomotives, both sound and silent ones, if you run them with DCC decoders on board and run them on a DCC powered track.

Jim

[jsdranger]

Doneldon,

Thanks for all your input. it definitely is a ton to digest. 

in regards to your comments about the layout i have defined, I have tried to attach a picture  of the upper portion of my layout but will not let me.  you mentioned about having inner and outer loops being connected.  you can see in the lower left portion of themy layout there is a crossover from outer to inner.  there is also a connection from inner to outer.  I am using 18" radius on both the inner and outer loop and can use up to a believe a 50' car maybe a bit bigger.  On the inside of the inner track there is a mountain and a lake that is home to a camping ground.  the one failed part of my track was my home made tunnel, i gave it just enough room for the trains that i had purchased without thought to new rolling stock i bring in.  so with some stock due to their height, they will not fit into the tunnel, bad move on my part.  so i cant use crane cars on the outer loop, but maybe in the near future, i can find a way to change that, but if i do that, it will require quite a bit of rework on the sections that lead up to the top of the tunnel and go up and over it as well

You make mention of many train types, not sure how much of a fan i am of the 2-8-2, not to mention i really dont know what that means, the naming nomenclature.  As far as i know they are the old school steam engines?  that style i think would be great on a track that is going for old school, but i think with the acela line and other thoughts i have i am not sure how good the steam engines will look mixed in on this layout.  I think my interests lay with the diesel engines right now.  that can always change in the future depending on the type of layout i want when i start my new tracks once i move and have the room for a much larger layout.

I notice there are alot of systems just from the few you mentioned, NCE, digitrax and lenz.  What do i want to look for in these to seperate each one to help me make an informed decision?

How can i post a picture on here if it keeps telling me the upload folder is full?

Thanks again, this information is invaluable for a novice such as myself

[ACY]

ACY,
I would not call a system that can control up to 128 throttles and 128 locomotives at once, puts out 8 amps of current without an external booster, can do mixed mode consisting on multi levels (nesting,) can control 30 function outputs, uses wired throttles, infrared throttles, and radio throttles (both simplex and duplex,) uses transponding to keep track of your trains, programs on the mainline, programs and reads back CV''s on a separate programming track in 3 different modes, works with the JMRI computer suite, can throw switches and sets of switches, and runs dc as well as DCC locomotives, I would not call a basic system with limited functions and capabilities.

Thanks for the correction Jim, I misspoke, I must not have been thinking clearly when I posted that. At any rate, the point is that there is a reason only a couple systems support running analog locos on address 0 or 10. I had one of my analog locos overheat on DC track after running it for 30 minutes on a level layout with only a few cars in tow.

[Joe323]

the term 2-8-2 refers to the wheel arraignment of a steam locomotive under the whyte system (Named for guy who invented it).

Turn a steam loco upside down and the wheel will look something like this:

           Right
         o-oooo-o         
Front  ----------  Rear
         o-oooo-o

You see two wheels on the front end 8 wheels in the middle and 2 in the rear 2-8-2

Hope that helps

[Doneldon]

jds-

I wasn't insitsting that you have steam engines on your pike; I was just trying to demonstrate how a "back story" can give you reasons for building a model railroad in a certain way. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was making decisions for you or telling you what to do.

DCC. The single most important thing to look for is that the system you buy complies with the NMRA's standards for DCC. This will be easy to do as only a couple of proprietary systems sold in the US are non-compliant. Beyond that, look at a system's power, features and expandability.

If you anticipate running only a couple of trains at a time, an entry-level system might have enough power. But don't forget lighting in trains, sound and accessories as part of the power demand if these will be operated by track power. It is possible to get battery powered lights and to run accessories from power sources other than your track. There are off-line sound possibilities also, but, IMHO, it's better not to screw around with them when on-board sound works so well. A good rule of thumb is to figure about .5 amps for a silent loco and nearly an amp for locos with sound. Older motors draw more current but it's often fairly straightforward to replace/update motors. Keep in mind that I'm talking about locos here, not trains. A train with three powered locos on the front end will easily pull an amp or more, even without sound. Also, two or three amps might sound generous now but you'll want a system which can be upgraded if you expect your power needs increase in the future.

Only you know the features you need or want so make a list. You can go to manufacturers' websites to educate yourself about what's available. Some things which may matter to you are the ease of learning a system, its ease of use, programming on the main, reading CVs, wireless -- walk around --  operation (infrared or radio), number of possible controllers and number of locomotives, manner of consisting (operating several locomotives as one unit), computer interface, and the big one, cost. You might also want to consider what system a model railroad club or friend uses if you expect to operate on the other system or to have other people operate on yours. In addition to making it easy to operate on one another's layouts, having the same system as your friends will let them give you meaningful help when you run into a snag. And you will hit some snags. It's a requirement.
                                                                                                                                                              -- D

[jward]

ranger,
of the 4 locomotives you listed, i would recommend the b23-7. here's why:

you mentioned that you were going to build a 5x8 layout. anything that small, especially with the mountain line you described, you are probably going to use 18"r curves. the b23-7 will handle those nicely, the larger locomotives won't.

i would also seriously consider the gp30/35/40 from bachmann as a good entry level dcc equipped locmotive.

[jsdranger]

Doneldon,

Thanks for all the information.  it definitely is alot to take in.  I am not sure of what i would like but right now for a controller i am leaning towards the Bachmann Trains E-Z Command Dynamis Wireless Infrared Digital Command Control System.  I like the idea of not being tethered to the table.  And from reading the manual seems relatively straight forward on set up and configurations. 

Hopefully in time, this system will allow me to run up to 4 or 5 trains at the same time when i increase the size of my layout.  i am hoping that with the bachmann command dynamis it will allow me to grow to that size.


Jward,
I would like to have sound on the trains so those entry level trains may not be right for me at this time.  i realize the cost will grow exponentially  based on sound, but the realism from the sound i think will provide much more enjoyment for me and my kids.

Also, the layout has already been built and you are correct, i am using 18" radius turns.  I wish i could post a picture on here so you guys could see it, it wont let me.

Thanks for all the input, it really has been great