19th Century Equipment

[J3a-614]

Never mind the smoke machine, put the speaker for the sound system there!  Be nice to have the sound come from where it should instead of the tender!

[J3a-614]

The real question about whether such a model, even a high-quality one, isn't "Can it be built?"but "Can it be sold?"  Remember, this is probably a $250,000 or more investment for Bachmann or anyone else; even with additional parts to represent other engines (steam locomotives like this were often catalog engines), would enough sell to justify the investment, likely not only of a locomotive, but of cars to go with it?

[CNE Runner]

J3A - I think you have "hit the nail on the head" by asking "...if it will sell?" Nineteenth century modeling is a very, very small segment of the hobby. As was mentioned, product start up costs can be daunting indeed...to sell how many pieces? Sadly, I think 19th century modeling will remain a catch-as-catch-can genre.

Regards,
Ray

[Pops]

I think it's the "chicken or the egg" syndrome.
That era is not that popular because there's not much available, and, there's not much available because it's not that popular.

Look at ads, logos and posters.  The majority have old steam (diamond stacks, etc) in the graphics.  This period represents "trains" so very much.
Unfortunately for the hard core, our hobby is moving away from build everything to ready-made.  The more that's available, the bigger the market will get.

I wish someone - Bachmann, or anyone would make a top-notch early 4-4-0.  Even a generic single model with most graphics, but no company markings.  C'mon Mr. B. - put in the word for an early 4-4-0 spectrum series, DCC, with sound (and smoke would be awesome).

[Doneldon]

I think it's the "chicken or the egg" syndrome.
That era is not that popular because there's not much available, and, there's not much available because it's not that popular.

Pops-

There's a lot of truth in your statement. And I think it's a shame. Just about all of us feel constrained by space issues but we'd be able to run prototypical length trains on old time layouts because the smaller equipment would run just fine on 18-inch radius track. Even passenger trains would look good with equipment which is only 38-50 feet long. But it would eliminate the big steam so many of us enjoy, and everything modern. It would also restrict the variety of our trains as the early railroads drew from a narrow range of equipment, at least by 20th Century standards.

I have some Civil War trains but not to run; I use them as part of a display about the Civil War which I take when I teach community education classes on the war.
                                                                 -- D

[J3a-614]

Thought you all might like to see another fellow who works with the 19th century.  Of particular interest is that two of his locomotives are from Arbour--a Brooks 2-6-0 and a Baldwin 4-4-0.  This was a line of kits that were notoriously difficult to put together.  Guess who built that line's Allegheny as his first attempt at kit building, and even got it to run, and still has it?

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/PC090194.JPG

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/PC090195.JPG

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=35088

Among the smaller engines, Arbour also made a 4-4-0, two 4-6-0s (based on Sierra Railway No. 3 and Sylvania Central No. 103), and a Pennsy 0-4-0 in both tender and tank versions.

One fellow working on a 4-4-0, with more new and homemade parts than from the kit:

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35088&whichpage=19

Some other photos by the guy:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/74408027@N02/

[J3a-614]

Here's a review of the Sylvania Central kit; the fellow is either a liar, or exceptionally lucky in getting everything to fit, or a first-rate craftsman who wasn't intimidated by the model.  The results in the photos suggest the latter.  Note that you can page forward and back from this page.

http://www.trainlife.com/magazines/pages/803/52406/april-1980-page-58

Actually these Arbour models had what I considered very good potential.  The smaller engines came with can motors, and once assembled ran quite decently (guess who has a 4-4-0 and both 4-6-0s), but assembly required a lot of patience and figuring things out.  Real old-school craftsman models that might have been out of the days of bronze castings in the 1930s, although the metal was something that seemed similar to pewter and was rather soft.

WHOA!!  A link with a history of Arbour:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/p/162304/2143757.aspx

The comments by the former Arbour owner bear out what I thought--potentially very good models, but with some flaws and difficult assembly.  And talk about a throwback, they were based on old Winton model diework from the 1940s!

[J3a-614]

You write this stuff, and you and others tickle your brain cells, and you start thinking of things. . .

Just a little polling here.  It seems there is at least a decent selection of 19th century freight and passenger cars available, especially if you're willing to work with craftsman kits in wood and resin.  Decals even seem to be available, too.  The big problem remains motive power.  Just off the top of my head, what seems to be currently available are:

4-4-0s by Bachmann, tender drive, reportedly based on UP 119 and CP 60 (Golden Spike engines), but from looking at certain details, with a touch of V&T as well.  They run surprisingly well given the age of the toolwork and the tender drives, and they are about the correct size for their prototypes.  It's hard to believe  how small some of these engines were until you see one in the flesh, like the William Mason in the B&O's museum.

2-6-0, 4-4-0, and 2-8-0 by Athearn/Model Die Casting/Roundhouse; good running engines, though generic models and a little sparse on detail.  Used to be available as kits, but now ready-to-run, and reported to be improved in operation.  Can resemble a variety of prototypes; the 2-8-0 is a virtual model of the Maryland & Pennsylvania's light 2-8-0s (which I believe were a Baldwin catalog design), and with some detail work would be right at home with Bachmann's Ma & Pa power.  All of these would be locomotives from late in the 19th century, after 1890 or so.

4-4-0 and 4-6-0--Bachmann's Spectrum models of Ma & Pa locomotives and the high-boilered, somewhat generic 4-6-0.  These represent prototypes built early in the 20th century and are detailed to look as they would have in the 1930s or later, but they also represent designs that would have been around in the 1890s.  The main thing would be changing details to represent practices from that time, which would include changes in plumbing to represent the cleaner look of engines as built, and in the case of the 4-6-0s, removing the outside valve gear, and if you wanted to be fussy about it, changing the cylinder block to a different slide valve job that would line up better with the rocker arms of inside Stephenson gear.

That's about all that I know about in HO, other than brass engines.  The availability in N scale is possibly worse, with a 4-4-0 and a 2-6-0 from Atlas (the 4-4-0 looks like a Baldwin, possibly V&T, the 2-6-0 looks like a Porter that was built as an export engine for Japan) and 2-8-0 from Athearn (looks like a big Baldwin built for the Northern Pacific in the 1890s).  I don't think any of those are in current production.  Then there are the N scale versions of Bachmann's 4-4-0s and the high-boilered 4-6-0.  The car situation in N is even worse than that for the locomotives, as far as I know.

So, here's the question:  What would be good choices for a manufacturer to look at for 19th century motive power?  What scale or scales would be offered, and in what format (craftsman kit or RTR)?  What prototypes would be good choices?  And finally, what era?  The 19th century technically goes back to 1830 or so, but for our purposes I don't think I would go prior to 1855 or thereabouts.  After 1890 engines started to get large, though they were still simple and elegant compared with the flashy engines from before and the hulking drag engines that would come in the 20th century.

My nominations, HO scale:

4-4-0, with parts/modifications to fit locomotives built from 1860 to about 1885.  May wish to be careful about choosing wheelbase and driver size, to pick a common mechanism that could also simulate engines from different builders, such as Baldwin, Mason, Manchester, Rogers, and so on.

4-6-0, the same.

2-6-0, the same, possibly even using the boiler and tender of the 4-4-0, which is something Baldwin did, and likely others, too.

2-8-0, from 1890 on.

4-6-0, from 1890 on.

0-6-0, from 1890 on.

Two possible "other" locomotives that would be long shots:

0-8-0--Winans Camel from the pre-Civil War era, in use into the early 1890s.  An odd locomotive, a technological dead-end in many ways, but something built in surprisingly large numbers (the B&O had around 200 of them), and used on several roads.

4-8-0--This would really be a 20th century engine, and my choice of prototype would be N&W's M class.  An odd type some might say, but between the N&W having something like two-thirds of all the 4-8-0s built in America, and the fact that a survivor runs on the Strasburg, make it a possible contender, even if not a 19th century engine.

Finally, some commentary on modeling this time period:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/174692.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=1

I found this fellow's comments from that thread to be very pertinent:

"The other reasons we are unlikely (I never give up hope) to ever see mass-produced 4-4-0s of the late 19th Century is the price/performance dilemma.  Very, very few modelers are willing to pay the same price for a 4-4-0 as they will pay for a 4-8-4, yet the 4-4-0 is actually more costly to engineer and produce.  An example:  motor location is a no-win situation.  There are modelers who will refuse to buy an engine with a tender-mounted motor, no matter how well it is done.  The low cost location of the traditional firebox/cab leaves no space for a flywheel, a tail-heavy 4-4-0, and lost traction and tracking.  Putting the motor in the boiler takes the space of weight required for traction, and requires some kind of reduction drive from the motor shaft to the parallel, but lower, worm shaft.  Bachmann cogged belts are not an acceptable solution to all, but spur gears tend to be a noisy alternative.

"To cut all new tooling will force a retail price of at least $200 in today's market, and $300 might be more realistic.  If "cute" enough, an 1880s 4-4-0 would probably sell single copies to a lot of modelers of other eras.  Especially if paired with some reasonably accurate open platform passenger cars.  But there aren't enough of us who would buy several to a half dozen to fill out a normal roster of the period.  And at $300 per, you are in the price range of used brass.  So your detail has to be equal to, and the performance better than used brass to garner the necessary sales.  Not impossible requirements, but it would be a risky investment.

"Of course, if you know of suitable investors I will be happy to accept a commission from them to design and have a good 1880s 4-4-0 produced.

"My thoughts, your choices

"Fred W."

Plenty of good reading on that thread; explore and enjoy.

[Woody Elmore]

Wow - some nice work shown in this thread. In all my years of tinkering with HO kit engines - from an English switcher to any number of PennLine/Bowser kits - I never, ever met a person who was successful in assembling an Arbour models kit. My hat is off to anyone who actually finished an Arbour kit.

[Doneldon]

J3a-

Thank you for your comprehensive list of 19th Century motive power. It must have taken quite a while to key in, not to mention the effort needed to accumulate the information in the first place.

I do think it's necessary to separate the availability of motive power (and rolling stock, an artificial distinction I like to maintain) for different 19th Century time periods. It seems to me there are three: 1.) Early railroading days, say up to 1855 or so; 2.) the mid-19th Century, roughly 1855 to 1880; and, 3.) the late 19th Century.

There is almost nothing available for the earliest days of railroading except for a very few items like Bachmann's Pegasus and DeWitt Clinton. Pretty much everything else would have to be scratch built. There is a little more for the mid-century period, including the Civil War era. Bachmann has two serviceable sets but both (not a criticism) have the same locomotive. Different manufacturers have produced a couple of different passenger car types appropriate to the period, but not as high-quality models. The selection of freight cars is not even a real selection. The availability of both motive power and rolling stock increases substantially for the last 20-25 years of the 19th Century. There are at least half a dozen common loco wheel arrangements with examples made by several different companies, as well as legacy brass. Freight cars are adequate including some very high-quality examples from LaBelle's and Central Valley. Of course, those must be assembled which seems to be rapidly losing popularity. And passenger cars are well represented by both high-quality models from LaBelle's and bare bones budget lines in plastic. Appropriately, most of the passenger car models are wood, but it is possible to score models of the steel cars which were not much more than experimental at the fin de siecle.

Not surprisingly, this differential availability reflects what "old time" modelers model (or controls what "old time" modelers model, apropos Pops' earlier post on this thread). Although my own primary interest is the earliest days of the steam to diesel transition (late 1930s give or take) I do enjoy my Civil War period items even though I don't run them. Why is that, you might ask. Well, I like to be at least a little bit attentive to prototype when it comes to the big things and, for me and the mid-19th Century, that means link and pin couplers. Do you know how small 1:87 pins are compared to my old, fat fingers? Trust me. It just wouldn't work. And it's not very pretty, either.

I hadn't thought about this much until recently, largely due to this thread, but I do wish there were more 19th Century equipment available. I appreciate that Bachmann has tried to fill some of the vacuum. Now if someone will just make link 'n' pin couplers with delayed magnetic action I might build a small old time pike.
                                                                                                               -- D

[Johnson Bar Jeff]

Except for expensive brass imports, any model locomotive I've ever seen that purports to be the Central Pacific's Jupiter is wrong in the steam dome. The Jupiter was a Schnectady engine, and in the 1850s and 1860s the Schnectady Locomotive Works used a very distinctive, smoothly curved steam dome. That's one way you can identify a Schnectady engine in old photographs.

BTW, I agree with Pops and Doneldon about the "chicken or the egg."

I can also report that I have in my rolling stock an Athearn/Model Die Casting/Roundhouse 2-8-0 and a 2-6-0, and both engines are good runners.

J.B.J.

[richg]

I have the same locos, but the 4-4-0, 2-6-0 and 2-8-0. All identical in size. Great runners with a Micro Tsunami.
According to many photos I have, these locos are probably not all 1880s vintage but probably 1895 vintage and later as they all have air pumps on the left side, I have Abdill's books and many, many locos of that era had air pumps on the right side.
The locos are what I call a Plain Jane next to my Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0. Much better detail on Bachmann locos but that one is about 1913 vintage. I did put an old oil headlight on it.
The Bachmann old time 4-4-0 tender drive is really plain.

Rich

[richg]

PSC is suppose to sell a CW HO loco that was used in the Lincoln funeral train but it will cost and arm, leg, first born, etc. Only 75 being made. Wait until they show up on ebay.
I believe it will come with the four truck funeral car.

Rich

[richg]

I think it's the "chicken or the egg" syndrome.
That era is not that popular because there's not much available, and, there's not much available because it's not that popular.

Look at ads, logos and posters.  The majority have old steam (diamond stacks, etc) in the graphics.  This period represents "trains" so very much.
Unfortunately for the hard core, our hobby is moving away from build everything to ready-made.  The more that's available, the bigger the market will get.

I wish someone - Bachmann, or anyone would make a top-notch early 4-4-0.  Even a generic single model with most graphics, but no company markings.  C'mon Mr. B. - put in the word for an early 4-4-0 spectrum series, DCC, with sound (and smoke would be awesome).

The technology to put decent sound in thee loco, not the tender is not available. Even the tender sound is not realistic.
Most kids want the sound blasting anyway. Even grown up kids do the same.
Forget how many times at a local train show that the promoters had to tell the kids to keep the sound to about maybe eight feet away.
We are trying to do full scale sound in say, HO for full scale ears. Maybe, for HO, we need HO scale ears.

Rich

[Pops]

 Just off the top of my head, what seems to be currently available are:

4-4-0 and 4-6-0--Bachmann's Spectrum models of Ma & Pa locomotives and the high-boilered, somewhat generic 4-6-0.  

Nope - no HO spectrum 4-6-0 available now - only in "tiny town" (N).  I wish it was still available.

I'm sorry but I don't agree about size being a problem.  Seems to be lots of 19th century stuff being released in "N" and that's GOT to be harder than HO.