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Author Topic: Plug and play a great concept  (Read 10407 times)
trainman844

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« on: October 29, 2007, 10:09:48 PM »

Mr Bachmann

I have read the other thread and I want to express a different opinion.  If I  understand this you are intending to offer us a socket similar to the one used by AristoCraft in their locomotives.  If true this will be fantanstic!

I currently run on track power but intend to go RC or DCC n the future.

If  I understand this correectly, I can purchase a QSI sound board now that plugs right into the socket and get sound for my locomotives now and later when I am ready I can choose to go DCC or Radio Control if I just plug in the QSI receiver.

What could be simplier

And I can do this myself without the need of a high cost installer.

Which locomotives will have this socket?

Plug and play   Grin Grin Grin

Trainman
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altterrain


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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2007, 10:43:01 PM »

Great concept if that is what is being proposed (and its not). The devil is in the details and they are all there if you bother to read them and be informed.

-Brian
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Curmudgeon
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2007, 11:23:29 PM »

This is NOT the same as Aristo.
Aristo as of right now is NOT on-board with this.
Therefore, the Aristo units will most likely NOT plug into the proposed sockets.
There is a very qualified person now working diligently to write the non-existant list of requirements.
Once that is done, and the process re-starts with the independent observer in the process, we might, and I say agin, MIGHT, get something usable.
If you are going to go r/c, I wish you luck, as right now not one major r/c manufacturer is on-board with the proposal as it stands.
Therefore, you will NOT be plug-and-play, rather cut-and-throw, then re-wire.

edit:  http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=49409
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 11:37:32 PM by Curmudgeon » Logged
Jim Banner

Enjoying electric model railroading since 1950.


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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 01:15:48 AM »

Trainman, that is the basic idea behind plug-and-play.  Whether the sound board plugs into the motor controller, or the motor controller plugs into the sound system, or whether they double stack on top of the socket, we don't know at the moment.  In existing systems, we are already seeing sound cards that plug into motor controllers, both in DCC and in radio control.  Personally, multiple cards stacked one on top of another, each with plugs on the bottom and sockets on the top, strike me as the best approach with where the proposal seems to be going at the moment.  In addition to sound and motor control, I can see a third card that is a battery controller, looking after battery charging and discharging.  Maybe a forth card to control animation.  The cards might have auxiliary connectors on their edges for batteries, on/off switch, speakers, little motors that make the engineer turn his head when the locomotive backs up, and so forth.  Plug-and-play is on the way.  It is just a question of how it will be implemented.
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zubi


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« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 06:21:37 AM »

Plug and pray, Zubi
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Jim Banner

Enjoying electric model railroading since 1950.


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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 10:33:41 AM »

Plug and pray, Zubi

For the technically disinclined, that might be better than "wire-and-weep."
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Dale Loyet

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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 08:22:51 PM »

      I think plug and play is a GREAT idea, especialy if it works good. It would be nice to just unplus track power, and plug in battery power. or just plug in a sound system, or radio control. It can't be that easy. I must be dreaming.
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zubi


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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 10:01:05 PM »

Can we plug in live steam too? Zubi
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lkydvl

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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2007, 09:21:41 AM »

Once all your plug and play cards are installed....where do you plan to put batteries?

With the given board and plugs sizes you'll be unable to put batteries inside many locos.

Andre'
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Curmudgeon
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2007, 11:29:36 AM »

You just have to remember, once they have been brainwashed into one operating system and one alone, with cookie-cutter socketing that leaves out any thought process, the concept of any other operating system becomes heresy, punishable by bending of their track gauges.
Many, many folks I know or talk to went to outdoor LS to escape the nmra.
Now, we have indoor, fair-weather, small-scale, standard adherers deciding what the LS outdoor community is going to do.

If for no other reason than to keep your independence, I would avoid this.

You see the folks who are staunch nmra supporters jumping right in line with this?
No comprehension (even if they claim to understand) or speaker size, weather issues, current draw, and battery size?

There are two far, far better proposals on the table right now.

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Loco Bill Canelos

Model railroading since 1947


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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2007, 12:22:53 PM »

Agree that the concept of plug and play is a good idea.  I am not a techie, and do not enjoy that part of the hobby.  A simpler reliable method is attractive to me.  Thanks to help from TOC and others I now do my own successful installs on electronics etc on my locos, but I would still rather be doing something else. 

A friend had a professional install done, battery sound- the works, but does not understand any part of it.  He has sent it back to the installer at least twice at great cost for repair or other problems.  With his huge inveatment in this loco, and the problems,  has decided the hobby is simply not affordable to him and is to much hassle relative to the enjoyment level.   I go to the National Convention and it is mostly old timer like me,  The cost of the hobby keeps escalating (track prices are only the beginning, as the dollar drops and all oil & fuel related costs take their toll)
the only good side is that maybe some production will come back to the USA.  Anyway the technically defficient like me and younger people seem to be shunning the hobby. 

If reliable socket or two will make it easier and and less costly then I am for it.  Hopefully all the issues, amps, reliability etc can be worked out.  I am not a fan of the NMRA, I spent a lifetime of work fussing over issues and standards, and don't want to now.  I appreciate the efforts of others to surface all the issues, and will remain hopeful that some compromise will be worked out that will be benificial to all, and keep cost low. 

My 2 cents worth!

Bill
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Loco Bill,  Roundhouse Foreman
Colorado & Kansas Railway Missouri Western Railway
Semi Official Historian; Bachmann Large Scale
There are no dumb or stupid questions, just questions!
Curmudgeon
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2007, 12:37:33 PM »

Well, Bill, they didn't come back to me!
But I know what you're saying.
The socket will not fix that issue, however.
Just look at the MR forums, even these forums, and see how many posts of "How do I install DCC?" followed with "How do I remove the shell?"

I talk folks through stuff so they know how it works.
A friend and I used to build railroads indoors for folks.
Gave up.
Why? Because the owners had no clue on wiring, gauge, lubrication, none of it.
The question I have seen on smaller scale forums goes like this:
"I have 2 locomotives, a circle of track, and 8 cars. What brand of dcc should I buy?"
The answers go on for pages.
But the real answer is never given
The answer is "none".
Not because dcc isn't what they may eventually want, but the newbies need to start out with straight track power, learn about joiners, feeders, insulating, clean track, clean wheels, lubrication, gauge issues, in other words, they need to "figure it out" before they throw technology at the problem.
If they start out with the technology, and it doesn't run (one thread like that now on MR..... "My trains don't run!") they are clueless as to where to look.

Let's look at the LS version as proposed:
Current issues. Mis-undertsnading of doubling of contacts. Electricity does not follow the path you might think, and generally does not split anywhere close to evenly in curent draw.
Corrosion. What happens with water or just moisture? What happens with moisture and current?
How long are those sockets going to last with moisture and higher currents?
Who is going to fix it when it fails?

Remember, I have no problem with it, as I have the expertise to yank any such board (and I have bags, boxes and drawers full of removed boards).
Manufacturers seem to look at such boards and try to cram as much onto them as possible.

I can address Climaxes, Shays, Heislers, Porters, 45-tonners, industrial 2-6-0's, and tell you it does not appear as if any consideration was given to battery placement OR large speaker placement.
In the case of the three-truck, batteries and speaker over third truck, but no wires to main body can handle any current.

There are two other proposals being worked on by actual engineers.
These will work for for everyone.
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zubi


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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2007, 12:47:12 PM »

Bill, I have two words of advice for your friend: live and steam. I guarantee this will bring the balance back between the hassle and the enjoyment level. Plus, there is some pretty affordable choice around these days. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
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Loco Bill Canelos

Model railroading since 1947


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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2007, 06:25:17 PM »

TOC, 

You are right they did not go back to you,  and I really appreciate all the help you have given me over the past years.  Now that you have trained me I have been helping some of my friends a little.   My son is now doing his own installs as well.  Clearly we must have the amperage, and reliability in outdoor conditions.  I am hopeful that wisdom will prevail and one of the two engineer developed proposals you mentioned will get adopted.  I do hope they will put in a switch that will allow use of the same locomotive under either track power or battery power.  Most of the folks I know are all track power.  I would like to easily switch back and forth as needed.  Now about coupler standards......Uh......  never mind!!!!! Grin  Roll Eyes Grin

Zubi, 
There are some affordable choices.  Live steam is fun for me to watch, but it is not somethiong I am personally interested in doing myself.  As for my friend it is too late he has changed to radio controlled cars, He says it is cheap compared to Garden size trains, no expensive track to buy, no permament space needed, no hundred dollar buildings to buy, no expensive locomotives to buy,  with two hundred dollar sound boards to put in them not to mention the cost of the battery power.  I better shut up, don't want to convince anyone to switch to radio controlled cars!!

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Loco Bill,  Roundhouse Foreman
Colorado & Kansas Railway Missouri Western Railway
Semi Official Historian; Bachmann Large Scale
There are no dumb or stupid questions, just questions!
Curmudgeon
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2007, 10:45:55 PM »

Bill-
This isn't all that's afoot.
Three or so years ago I got into it with a certain person over track and wheel standards.
Thought we had it fixed.
Now, the nmra is proposing changing it all again:

http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=49459
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