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Author Topic: K-27 Question  (Read 13242 times)
Steam Freak

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« on: November 07, 2007, 04:41:21 PM »

Is the K-27 going to be a new product for G scale? Or is it a kit bash someone made? I was a little confused on the Photo Gallery.
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Paul W.

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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2007, 06:05:49 PM »

The K is a brand new item, and very long awaited. But it is not G scale, this is 1:20.3 which is Fn3
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Happy Steamin'

Paul
Steam Freak

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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2007, 07:02:36 PM »

Fn3 is bigger than G scale isn't it?  I didn't know Bachmann made anything in Fn3.
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Paul W.

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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2007, 07:27:34 PM »

This subject has been drawn out many times on this board in the past, but here is the simple answer. The term "G" scale actually describes the 1:22.5 meter guage cars. Most of Bachmanns rolling stock, the Annies, all starter sets are all "G" scale. However the new 1:20.3 cars and locomotives are all Fn3. They are F scale, narrow guage running 3ft track.
Alot of folks use the term G scale to describe anything from 1:32 to 1:20, but the folks that are more serious about the hobby tend to differ.
To your question, yes the 1:20 "F" scale stock is larger.
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Happy Steamin'

Paul
zubi


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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2007, 10:01:02 PM »

Paul, I tend to disagree. Term G is pretty flexible and describes practically anything that runs on 45mm gauge and is not gauge 1 (1:32), so the range of scales which fall under G is anything from about 1:29 to 1:13. This is also the range of scales used by LGB and please remember that the first ever G locomotive is in about 1:20 scale and it is a 30inch prototype. Precise denomination for 1:22.5 is 1:22.5, and if you want to specify that this is a meter gauge prototype you can use NEM denomination IIm. To make a long story short the new K-27 by Bachmann is as  G as everything else to me but it is not 1:22.5 - unfortunately Sad, Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
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Paul W.

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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2007, 11:26:40 PM »

Zubi,
Like I said earlier, this will start controversy (like it did the last time around). Everyone has their own opinion, myself, you, and everyone else on this board. If you want to call everything "G" scale, fine, but I didn't come up with the scale terms. If YOU look in this months issue of Garden Railways mag., you will see an advertisement for folks modeling F & Fn3, and it shows the scale as 1:20 & 1:20.3.
So call yours what you will, to someone who is learning the hobby like Steam Freak, knowledge is a good tool, and the ability to learn the difference in scales and sizes IS a good tool.
When I first got into large scale trains, I got corrected quite quickly that everything running on guage 1 track was NOT "G" scale.
And like yourself, this is my opinion.
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Happy Steamin'

Paul
Steve Stockham


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« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2007, 01:05:22 AM »

Zubi,
  One of the things that defines a "scale" (at least for me) is whether the scale in question defines the gauge or does the gauge define the scale! Marklin started the three large gauges and LGB resurected I Gauge as 1:22.5 for metre gauge which I believe was actually scaled correctly! It was only when American 3ft. narrow gauge prototypes showed up that the 1:22.5 started to go whonky!
  The situation only got worse when Charlie and Lewis each made the fateful decision to model their products in 1:29 representing standard gauge even though 1:32 is I Scale! Whether you call G Scale "Goofy Scale" or "Garden Scale" the fact is that these scales all can be run together on the same 45mm track therefore "G Scale" is most definitely an all-encompasing term defined by the gauge of track!
  "F Scale" is slightly different however in that, while it's origins can be traced directly to 45mm track, it is not defined by it! 1:20.32 has both standard gauge models running on 70.64mm gauge track as well as Fn3 3ft. narrowgauge models running on 45mm gauge track. In this case the scale defines the gauge! This is why I find myself in rare agreement with the NMRA on this issue!
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zubi


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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2007, 03:15:30 AM »

Steve, thanks for the note, but let me remind you that LGB's first was a Stainz. Stainz is a sweet 0-4-0 engine several of which were built by Krauss - for the 760mm gauge. Never for a meter gauge! To confuse the enemy, Richter brothers scaled their Stainz using 1:22 length ratio and about 1:20 ratio for height and width. Since then the enemy remains confused and LGB produced all sorts of equipment from scale 1:13 (some feldbahn rolling stock) to about 1:27 (standard gauge rolling stock) to make things even more complicated;-)... Now, it is not the case that LGB did not do some locomotives precisely to 1:22.5 scale. One of the first such products was the LGB Mogul which very nicely fits with 1:22.5. The Mogul is not alone since also the D&RGW #50 and a few Limited Edition locomotives are spot-on 1:22.5. There are also several Swiss and a couple of German 1 meter prototypes which were also done in 1:22.5 but unfortunately not that many. The main manufacturer of 1:22.5 equipment is Magnus, producing both standard gauge and meter gauge prototypes in  this scale and who I admire for their detail, but not for the operational qualities and not for quality to price ratio - these are mantle and showpieces not garden locomotives and rolling stock. Luckily, recently we are getting a new flow of correctly scaled 1:22.5 locomotives and rolling stock from such companies as Kiss and  Brawa and let me also mention Regner, Reppingen and Dingler although their volume is small and prices high.
One ought to remember that in addition to LGB wiggling scales in all directions, some US manufacturers started producing 1:24 scale consistently to create more mess and prove LGB wrong - which turned out to be quite a difficult task as they got almost eliminated from the market (granted this happened to LGB too in the end). In addition some small live steam manufacturers produced 15mm and 16mm locomotives (which respectively translate to 1:20 and 1:19 scale ratios) to run on 45mm gauge in addition to 32mm (sometimes both gauges are possible). All these can be referred to G when the locomotive runs on the 45mm track, but in practice there are so few of them that nobody is much bothered, usually 15mm or 16mm scale is referred to if required.
Fn3 is a neologism proposed to NMRA by a WG headed by Stan Ames back in 1994 and which I entirely reject from the first draft.  This neologism has been chosen by a couple of manufacturers as a marketing tool against LGB's G-scale and since then has been quite successfully established among enthusiasts of 36" gauge. Many newcomers to large scale adopted the new nomenclature but for me all things on 45mm track are G if they are not gauge 1 standard gauge (which can be 1:32 or 1:30 as Aster proves) See it as a political statement if you like Grin. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
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Paul W.

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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2007, 07:11:38 AM »

If the theory that "if it runs on 45mm track, it's G guage", then does the same translate to all scales? On30 runs on HO track, so with the G scale theory, that makes On30=HO, and HOn3=N guage. You are not considering the locomotive or rolling stock at all. If I widen my trucks on my 1:20 center cab, and hand lay standard guage track, the body is still the same size, but now I'm running on wider track, so now I'm F scale not G. Well the engine is F scale even if I take the trucks off.
I don't fault anyone who wants to call it G scale, me personnally just refer to my RR'ing as large scale. If I am asked if it's "G", I explain some is, some is Fn3.

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Happy Steamin'

Paul
zubi


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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2007, 09:00:45 AM »

Zubi,
Like I said earlier, this will start controversy (like it did the last time around). Everyone has their own opinion, myself, you, and everyone else on this board. If you want to call everything "G" scale, fine, but I didn't come up with the scale terms. If YOU look in this months issue of Garden Railways mag., you will see an advertisement for folks modeling F & Fn3, and it shows the scale as 1:20 & 1:20.3.
So call yours what you will, to someone who is learning the hobby like Steam Freak, knowledge is a good tool, and the ability to learn the difference in scales and sizes IS a good tool.
When I first got into large scale trains, I got corrected quite quickly that everything running on guage 1 track was NOT "G" scale.
And like yourself, this is my opinion.

Paul, thanks for the note! Sure, this is likely to start controversy - and let me ask again, are these scale wars not fun Grin?? Well, actually not. So I will shut up once more. But I think that even newcomers (and I have no idea if Steam Freak is one or not) could acquire a somewhat broader historical understanding of (narrow) gauge and scale flavours than just be told, "no you are wrong, this is not G, but F". Although, perhaps all he wants to know if the new K thing is approximately four times larger than his HO stuff. I guess you are right and there are plenty of F adverts now in GR, sadly I will not be looking in the new issue. I have just given up subscription after almost 15 years, somehow, perhaps also due to this "correctness" tendency, a lot of joy, creativity and art which went into Large Scale or G Wink at the time I joined it, somehow left us. But never mind, I found it in abundance in Live Steam and in collecting every possible 1:22.5 G-scale I can find. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
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Steam Freak

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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2007, 08:03:10 PM »

The Two Truck Bachmann Heisler on this website says that its scale is 1:20.3

So does that make the Bachmann Heisler G or Fn3?
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zubi


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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2007, 08:43:47 PM »

 G2me Grin, or 15mm to be precise, Zubi
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glennk28

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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2007, 09:32:06 PM »

Back in the early 90's when the NMRA Engineering committee's Laarge Scale Working Group was trying to nail down just what it was, a lot of us wanted SOME sort of definition for each of the many scales that were showing up, all calling themselves "G", running on #1 gauge track. 

Keeping in mind that when LGB started using the term, they were modeling prototypes measured in metric units, running on meter-gauge track.  The proportion was correct for the track gauge.

Where the confusion started coming in was with some of the American manufacturers.  Some tried to simplify measurements to construct models by using 1/2" to the foot.  This is 1:24.  It even worsened the gauge/scale error.  Others, applying a bit of logic, divided the track gauge (45mm) by the 3-foot gauge they wanted to model, and came up with 15mm = one foot.  1:20.3  Makes sense.  Some manufacturers began to produce this proportion. 

NMRA attempted to standardize the scales, and assigned identifying letters to them, following the practice in the smaller scales.  Some scales had used letters related to the scale size or track gauge, as with "N" using Nine-mm track gauge.  "Fifteen MM" starts with "F"--so it was selected.  "G" was there--just a bit smaller, and still a bit smaller was that Half-inch scale--which becale suggested as "H".  Nice progression, it seemed--  H, G, F. 

As a size comparison, I like to use the typical narrow gauge 30-foot boxcar.  This car measures 15" long in 1:24; 16" in 1:22.5, and just short of 18" in 1:20.3.  That makes quite a difference, and when models of the different scales are mixed, it can be quite noticeable.  Therefore, the desire for some simple identifier so that the consumer can purchase equipment visually compatible with the rest of what he may have.    I can recall buying (mail order) some cars labelled as "G", that were almost tiny compared with the rest of what I had--turned out to actually be #1 scale (standard gauge on our 45mm track)

So--whatever we want to call them, there is a need for a relatively simple identifier for the scales that are being produced, as a guide for the buyer who wants to keep his modleling all in the same scale, whichever it may be.

gj
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 09:41:03 PM by glennk28 » Logged
zubi


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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2007, 10:13:35 PM »

The Two Truck Bachmann Heisler on this website says that its scale is 1:20.3

So does that make the Bachmann Heisler G or Fn3?

Steam Freak, now let me ask you a question or two. LGB makes a sweet 0-4-0 Porter, what denomination would you use for it? Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
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zubi


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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2007, 11:17:25 PM »

Back in the early 90's when the NMRA Engineering committee's Laarge Scale Working Group was trying to nail down just what it was, a lot of us wanted SOME sort of definition for each of the many scales that were showing up, all calling themselves "G", running on #1 gauge track. 

GJ, thanks for the notes,

G was and is related to track gauge and overall size more than the scale as it is an umbrella over a range of scales. Even back then some manufacturers were labeling their products with numerical scale such as 1:24 in the case of Delton or 1:29 in the case of Aristocraft. Granted, LGB did not use scale to label their individual products - indeed they often depart from one scale. Also, strangely enough Bachmann did not indicate scale - goodness only knows why - although their products were mostly nicely fitting 1;22.5.
Quote

Keeping in mind that when LGB started using the term, they were modeling prototypes measured in metric units, running on meter-gauge track.  The proportion was correct for the track gauge.


They were not. I have already explained this a few posts above. Stainz is a 760mm prototype. Majority of LGB products are NOT meter gauge and they were a majority at the time the LS WG discussed the scale nomenclature proposal.

Quote
Where the confusion started coming in was with some of the American manufacturers.  Some tried to simplify measurements to construct models by using 1/2" to the foot.  This is 1:24.  It even worsened the gauge/scale error. 

I agree, the logic behind this was most likely commercial, but it did not work because the products were smaller than LGB (and of inferior quality but that is another story) In any case this was a very bad move as LGB suggested nominal 1:22.5 and had these manufacturers respected the choice we would not have a mess, or would have a smaller mess perhaps.

Quote
Others, applying a bit of logic, divided the track gauge (45mm) by the 3-foot gauge they wanted to model, and came up with 15mm = one foot.  1:20.3  Makes sense.  Some manufacturers began to produce this proportion. 

LGB was one of the first. Their 0-4-0 Porter is 1:20 or pretty close.

Quote
NMRA attempted to standardize the scales, and assigned identifying letters to them, following the practice in the smaller scales.  Some scales had used letters related to the scale size or track gauge, as with "N" using Nine-mm track gauge.  "Fifteen MM" starts with "F"--so it was selected.  "G" was there--just a bit smaller, and still a bit smaller was that Half-inch scale--which becale suggested as "H".  Nice progression, it seemed--  H, G, F. 


Never mind. So what should I use for 16mm scale by this logic? "S"Huh?
This did not make sense back then and it still does not....
But I like E scale - makes short for Eeyore - that is for 30inch
gauge of course, a nice example is the Fort Wilderness loco
produced as a limited run by Accucraft two years ago Grin;D;D



Strangely enough, there was a comprehensive set of European MOROP scale denominators in existence but LS WG  decided not to take notice http://www.geocities.com/nem010/index.html (although this is a pretty good list,
 please note that this list is neither complete nor entirely accurate, but gives a good example of non-NMRA scales, In particular 1:20 entry of MOROP, the subject of this war Roll Eyes is lacking denomination - so I still do not know what I should call my Argyle NA 2-6-2 live steamer which I am just painting - I cannot call it Fn3 because it is 0.32 off... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes).

Quote
I can recall buying (mail order) some cars labelled as "G", that were almost tiny compared with the rest of what I had--turned out to actually be #1 scale (standard gauge on our 45mm track)

Yes, you need to do some research before you buy...
Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS sorry I said that I am going to shut up, but these scale wars are so entertaining... Wink
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