Update from the newbie

[crb]

Train friends,

Thanks to all of you for your advice and willingness to answer my millions of questions.  I think we are closer to diagnosing my track issues.  Please bear with me, because all of this diagnosing has brought forth more questions.

Ok, so I have  Bachmann Big Haulers starter set.  I laid Bachmann brass sectional track on a bed of crushed stone.  I have been working with JUST the engine to try to get performance issues ironed out.  The engine moves jerkily when it moves and most of the time just sits there.  There is a light on the engine and a steam feature.  I am using the starter power supply pack that came with it, a 1 amp box. 

So, tonight, after receiving great advice from all of you, hubby and I took the voltage meter out and checked the voltage all across the track (about 60 feet).  There are no breaks in voltage, it is consistently 26 volts all over.  I cleaned the rails til they were shiny.  Cleaned the train wheels too.  It ran around the entire length of track once with just a few slow downs and jerky movements and then came to a dead stop.  Coaxing it by giving it a push makes it power forward a bit and then it stops again.  The fact that it did go around the track once makes me think that while the 1 amp power isn't fantastic, it is at least enough to make it work.

The track is level...I have checked it all with my torpedo level.

Forgive me for not knowing all of the proper terminology, but when the front four wheels are on the track and we hold the back of the engine up, the back 4 wheels spin like nobody's business.  But it seems that the front wheels just don't make good contact when the engine is placed on the track like it is supposed to be.

So, my question is this......does anyone else have this set and is it REALLY designed to be used outside?  It just seems that the engine isn't heavy enough to have the wheels make good contact.  The wheels are metal, but just about everything else is plastic and very lightweight. 

Also, the crushed stone that I used as ballast is very dusty.  Is there something else that works better?  Has anyone else tried using concrete pavers or something similar under the track, with better results?

Thanks in advance for reading my rambling message and any help that you can provide! 

Sign me,

Frustrated Newbie Train Gal that is about ready to hang up her engineer's hat and put the darn set on Ebay

[Chuck N]

Chris

There is supposed to be an arrow on the bottom of the front trucks, two non powered axles.  That arrow must point to the front.  Check to see if you have that arrow and what direction it is pointing.  If it is pointing to the tender, rotate it so it points front.

This could cause a short if it is pointing in the wrong direction.

Chuck

[crb]

Hi Chuck,

Yes, that arrow is pointing towards the front.  In fact, it can't even be turned all the way around so that it is pointing to the back. 

Does that help?

[Chuck N]

Sometime it gets turned around and causes problems. 

Chuck

[uscgtanker]

For you track bed the crushed rock dust will be a problem for long periods of time, you might try wetting it down to settle the dust. Being a real Gandy Dancer at a museum crushed rock depending on the region your in is used on the right of way. How ever that were dealing with a small size of rail you might want to elevate the track a inch or two. What I did with my track is raise it of the ground using crescent moon blocks from home depot. You will also have a problem with the brass rail in a few years. the brass will turn green if not cleaned properly and won't work well for electrical flow. I have stainless steel rail that has been out side for three years. It's held up through the tough Wisconsin winter's with little problems.

Once you find the issue with your engine and it runs nice and smoothly you will enjoy the hobby.

My best guess for the engine is that the motor coil needs to be cleaned. Since you cleaned the wheels and the power pick ups the problem will be with the wiring or the motor.

[Loco Bill Canelos]

CRB,

Yes the set is designed to work outside, and I have seen many of them perform just fine in a situation similar to yours.

If there is any possible way to find train club  in your area try to make contact and ask for help do it.  It is very difficult to make a diagnosis from a distance as we are trying to do.   

Yesterday I suggested trying the locomotive on the original track that came with the set indoors.  The only way I know to be absolutely sure if the problem is with the track or with the locomotive is to see if the locomotive works fine inside.   If it run fine inside then the problem is with the track.  If it runs the same inside as outside then the problem is the locomotive.   Try this and report back.


I am leaning to the idea that there may be a short in the wiring possibly in the front truck.   Put the loco on the track and put a thin piece of cardboard under the four small front wheels.   Hold the loco lightly in place and apply power, if the main six wheels spin like they should, then remove the cardboard and place the front four wheels back on the track, apply power up to full without holding it.   If the locomotive runs poorly again then the problem is likely in the front truck wiring.   look for a loose or frayed wire. 

[Loco Bill Canelos]

CRB,

I forgot to ask, but did you buy your set new or used?    Which set number do you have?   There were problems with some of the locomotives in certain older sets.

Bill

[crb]

Hi Bill,

In the midst of all the suggestions received, I  forgot yours to try to run it inside on the original track.  Sorry about that!  It worked fine on the inside track the day that I received it and chugged merrily around with no issues.  It is only since I have tried to use it outside that it has been a problem.  I will try your suggestions this weekend, particularly with the cardboard and see what I can come up with.

I have searched for a local group, but haven't had any success thus far.    I continue to look!

I purchased the set new, will have to check the box for the set number, but I have only had it for a couple of months.

Thanks again for all of your assistance!

[Kevin Strong]

Is the sound working and the lights on constantly while the locomotive is sitting on the track not moving when it's supposed to be moving, or are the lights flickering with the motor stopping and starting? If it's the latter (flickering lights in conjunction with stuttering motor) I'd look at the conductivity either between wheel and rail or wheel and track pick-ups. If I recall, the 4-6-0 uses brass (bronze?) strips which contact the brass bushings which hold the axles of the loco. The loco gets its power from the 4 wheels on the front pilot truck and the forward and rear drivers. The middle driver on the 4-6-0 actually doesn't touch the rails--a bit of modeler's engineering to get the train over rough track and around tight curves.

You can inspect these connections by removing the bottom plate from the locomotive. It's just a few screws. Make sure there's no oil or debris that may be blocking electrical conductivity between the brass bearings and the wipers, and also make sure there's no dirt or anything between the wheel hub and the bearing.

The front pilot on the 4-6-0 is known for being a bit timid with regard to how well it holds onto the track. (That's why it was re-designed for the latest release of the 4-6-0.) Previous versions (likely the one you have) support the front truck by a post that is in the middle of the truck that goes into the bottom of the steam chest (cylinder block). Often, this post is just long enough to where the truck makes contact with the rails, but doesn't give it a whole lot of downward pressure. People have had success by removing the truck, lengthening this post with some brass tubing that just fits over the outside of the post, stretching the spring just a bit to give it some more downward force, and re-assembling everything. Usually just an additional 1/8" is sufficient. I'm trying to remember off the top of my head if you have to remove the boiler from the chassis of the locomotive to do this.

Having said all that, if the lights and the sound are constant while the locomotive doesn't move, it sounds more like a loose connection between the electronics and the motor. There's no direct connection between the wheels and the motor on the chassis itself. The wiring goes up into the boiler, through the "Large Scale/NMRA" polarity switch in the smokebox, then returns to the motor. It's possible there's a loose wire in the plug, loose solder joint on the motor, or something of that ilk.

A third possibility, though rare on the latest few versions of the 4-6-0, is that you've got a bad gear. This would manifest itself in the loco not moving, but the motor spinning. It wouldn't stutter along the track so much as slow to a stop. With no power applied to the motor, you may be able to spin the wheels. This is a greater possibility on early-generation 4-6-0s, but I really don't think you've got one of those unless you bought a really dusty old starter set.

Garden Railways magazine has a club locator on their web site. Here's a link:
http://grw.trains.com/clubs   You can search by zip code, state, etc. If there's not a large scale club near you, you may try to find a small scale club. I don't know if Model Railroader has a similar resource or not. The NMRA might as well. (http://www.nmra.org)

Good luck!

Later,

K

[crb]

Kevin,

Thank you for your reply.....I think you may have nailed it with the post being too short on the front four wheels.  That seems to be EXACTLY what the problem is!  In fact, hubby and I were pouring over your book last night (wow...this is THE Kevin Strong that has responded!  ) and he suggested that we try some lead weights on the front somehow (similar to the ball bearings suggestion that you made in the book).   I think we will try that and see if it helps.  The more feedback I have received and the more I have tinkered with it, the more I am inclined to think that it just isn't making a good connection with the track.

Thank you again for your suggestions and help....I will let all of you know how it works out!  And I am continuing to search for a club! 

[RkyGriz]

Chris:
Have you tried adjusting the gap between the 4 front pilot wheels? They can be moved in and out on their axles and may not be making proper contact with the new track even if it's only a few thousandths of an inch wider than the Bachmann steel alloy track that comes in the starter sets. Sometimes, different brands of tracks can be a little off of one another. (Say Bachmann verses LGB and LGB versus Lionel, as examples ). It may be as simple as the wheels on the front pilot not making proper contact with the rails due to being pushed too far in towards the pilot frame on their axles.
Just an errant thought that I had.
Good luck!
Andrew

[crb]

Well, what do you know?  I brought it in and ran it on the original track that it came with and it flew around the track like nobody's business.  I still think there is something not quite right in the front 4 wheels, but I think we just need more power.  Off I go to research!!!

THANK YOU ALL SO VERY MUCH FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP AND ADVICE!  I hope I don't have to do anything else with the front 4 wheels, but at least I have some ideas now.

Heading to Taltree Arboretum in Valpairaso, IN tomorrow.  Can NOT wait to see all of their wonderful gardens!!!

Have a blessed weekend, train friends!

[Loco Bill Canelos]

CRB, 

Perfect, this is why I wanted you to recheck the loco on the indoor track!  Congratulations, You have now eliminated the locomotive as the problem.    Since your outdoor track is level, you now know the problem is with your track connections  or power supply.    So my suspicion is now that  the track Joiners are not making good contact, at one or more points along the track.  This is not uncommon especially with used track. 

Go to the far end of the track circle and separate the farthest track.  Reconnect your power supply at the midpoint  Kind of like a u shape with the power supply at the midpoint.    Starting at the track the power supply is connected to, set the power supply to full voltage.    Test this first track and note the voltage.   go to the next piece of the track on the left leg of the "U"  check the voltage at the midpoint,  if it is the same as the the original voltage, go to the next track section to the left and test it.   If it does not have the same voltage check the joiners and tighten them until you get the original voltage. repeat this process til you get to the open section.   Once you have the left section working perfect, go back to the track the power supply is connected to and go to the track to the right repeating til you get to the gap on the right.   Once you get everything showing the same voltage reconnect the circle making sure you get it good and tight.

If your track is clean your locomotive should run like it did inside.

I believe you mentioned you bought used track. If you did sometimes the joiners are not tight because they are widened when being taken apart.   Many times I have seen used track with corroded joiners, so clean them thoroughly til the inside of the joiner shows shiny bare metal, use a needlenose pliers to squeeze joiners to the point where you get a very tight fit when connecting them to the next track.  Use conductive grease in the joiners make sure the track ends without the joiners are also shiny clean.  Tighten the screws as tight as you can when reassembling  the track.   If you have to remove the joiner from the track completely to get it clean, definitely do it and clean the ends of the rails as well.

Once you get things going it will not be surprising to have track trouble again in the future when track is moved wiggled and or moved around even hard cleaning can create a problem with the connections at joints.   The absolute best way to avoid future problems with electrical contact is to use "rail clamps" and clamp each track section to the to the next one.

This link will take you to RLD Hobbies page with rail clamps: http://rldhobbies.com/railclampsandjoiners.aspx

When I first started my outdoor layout I did not use rail clamps.  As time went on and I had electrical problems, I used a clamp on the offending joint and eventually used clamps all the way around.  With clamps all the way around I had no future electrical problems and my locomotives ran poorly only when the track was not clean.  Clamps will be the best investment you can make on your railroad.

The process I want you to follow above is one I used frequently when I was asked to help  out folks with trouble like yours.  It always works when done with care.

You are getting close, Keep at it and you will succeed.

If you need to you can email me with questions about the above process, as my email address is public.

Let us know how it goes.

Loco Bill

[crb]

Hi Bill,

My track is new.  I purchased the Bachmann brass track, and it comes with joiners that are held in place with screws.  We tested it and there is consistent voltage all across the track.  I have a 10 amp power supply ordered, so once that arrives, I will try again to get this train chugging along!   

I think it is odd that sometimes the 1 amp power supply was enough to power it along, but not always.  So, I am not convinced that the lack of power was the complete issue, but we shall see.

Thank you for taking the time to reply......it is so wonderful to have a knowledge base to ask questions of! 

[crb]

Just thought I would let all of you know that I received my 10 amp power pack, and FINALLY, my train goes all the way around the track without stopping!!!!!!    Whoop, whoop, whoopity, whoop!!!!!   I still have some issues to work out, because it isn't perfect, but I think MORE POWER was definitely a key ingredient to success!!  What a feeling to watch that engine chug around, with smoke merrily pouring out of the smokestack. 

Thanks to all of you for all of the advice and suggestions!!!!!   What a great group of people we have here!