HO scale consists

[andyskemp1@gmail.com]

I have a reasonably small layout,6' x 4', and run on DCC. I'm attempting to run a Bachmann  Shark Diesel A unit and a Bachmann Diesel B unit RF-16 but unfortunately the B unit makes a grinding sort of noise when running with the A unit. It runs well and quietly on it's own. Both are set at address 5 on my EZ Command Controller. I thought that I had set them up properly but have I missed something ? Any help/advice appreciated.

[bapguy]

Run the B unit by itself to see if it makes the grinding noise. If not it sounds like it's running faster then the A unit. Put both on the track about a foot apart. Run them at various speeds.
if the B unit catches up to the A unit, that's  the problem.  I don't know how well the Bachmann decoders can be speed matched. So 2 problems: you can't speed match using you current system as it doesn't program cv's and the decoders aren't that good. I suggest replacing the decoders with something better. NCE makes a good decoder for Bachmann DCC on Board locos. That leaves you with finding someone to program the locos for you.  Joe
NCE decoder:  https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200945019-BACH-DSL

[andyskemp1@gmail.com]

Thanks Bapguy and very much obliged. Ran the two 1 foot apart as you suggested and the B unit is a wee bit faster than the A so I've ordered the recommended decoder and e-mailed a pal with an SOS re the installation. Again many thanks.

Andy

[Trainman203]

I always thought that the "consist" was the cars in the train........

[rogertra]

I always thought that the "consist" was the cars in the train........

It is.  It's also the name for two or more locos coupled together and operated by one engineer.

You have a train consist and a locomotive consist.


Cheers

Roger T.

[Trainman203]

I don't recall double headed steam locomotives being called a "consist".  Does the prototype call a string a diesels a "consist?"  Like "turnout", I think that " consist" meaning " engines" is model railroad terminology.

[Hunt]

Turnout is not just model railroad terminology.

Though not technically correct it is commonplace to find the entire section of trackwork that provides the means for a train to change tracks to be referred to by the label of one of its components – Switch.

Switch and Turnout the technical facts,
Switch   --- is the proper term for the movable parts of a Turnout.
Turnout --- is the proper term for the complete section of trackwork that provides the means for a train to change tracks.

This distinction is confirmed by any credible Railroad/Railway Civil Engineering text. I will leave it for those who wish to know to research what are all the parts of a Turnout.

Three real world railroad examples:

http://www.atlantictrack.com/The%20Source%20Book.pdf  Go to Trackwork section
    Warning large PDF file about 38 MB

http://www.bnsf.com/customers/pdf/indytrkstds.pdf

http://www.up.com/customers/ind-dev/operations/specs/track/

[on30gn15]

I don't recall double headed steam locomotives being called a "consist".  Does the prototype call a string a diesels a "consist?"  Like "turnout", I think that " consist" meaning " engines" is model railroad terminology.

The Federal Government calls it a consist, but as always, consider the source.

§ 218.93   Definitions.
As used in this subpart—
...
Lite  locomotive  consist  
means  two  or  
more locomotive units coupled without
cars  attached,  regardless  of  whether  
the  locomotive  units  are  connected  so  
that  they  may  be  operated  from  a  sin-
gle control stand.
Locomotive
means,   for   purposes   of  
this  subpart  only,  a  piece  of  on-track  
equipment    (other    than    specialized    
roadway  maintenance  equipment  or  a  
dual  purpose  vehicle  operating  in  ac-
cordance   with   § 240.104(a)(2)   of   this  
chapter):
(1)  With  one  or  more  propelling  mo-
tors  designed  for  moving  other  equip-
ment;
(2)  With  one  or  more  propelling  mo-
tors  designed  to  carry  freight  or  pas-
senger traffic or both; or
(3)   Without   propelling   motors   but  
with one or more control stands.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title49-vol4/pdf/CFR-2010-title49-vol4-sec218-93.pdf

As for steam locomotive consists, from 230.12, though consist here refers to the units towing the defective steamer, they could be diesel, electric, or steam.

(b)
Conditions  for  movement.  
Prior  to  
movement,    the    steam    locomotive    
owner  and/or  operator  shall  determine  
that it is safe to move the locomotive,
determine   the   maximum   speed   and  
other  restrictions  necessary  for  safely  
conducting the movement, and  notify  
in writing the engineer in charge of the
defective   steam   locomotive   and,   if  
towed,  the  engineer  in  charge  of  the  
towing  locomotive  consist,  as  well  as  
all  other  crew  members  in  the  cabs,  of  
the   presence   of   the   non-complying  
steam  locomotive  and  the  maximum  
speed and other movement restrictions.
In  addition,  a  tag  bearing  the  words  
''non-complying  locomotive''  shall  be  
securely   attached   to   each   defective  
steam locomotive and shall contain the
following information:
(1) The steam locomotive number;
(2) The name of the inspecting entity;
(3)  The  inspection  location  and  date;  
(4) The nature of the defect;
(5) Movement restrictions, if any;
(6) The destination; and
(7)  The  signature  of  the  person  mak-
ing the determinations required by this
paragraph (b).

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title49-vol4/pdf/CFR-2010-title49-vol4-part230.pdf

[rogertra]

I don't recall double headed steam locomotives being called a "consist".  Does the prototype call a string a diesels a "consist?"  Like "turnout", I think that " consist" meaning " engines" is model railroad terminology.

As I wrote, a consist is two or more locomotives coupled together and operated by one engineer.

Obviously, not possible with steam so this definition can only apply to diesel and electric locomotives.

Hence every working steam loco has to have a engineer and fireman thus we get double and triple headers etc..

However, since the end of steam, it has been known for a steam loco to be sort of m.u.ed with a B unit diesel.  This is done by running m.u. controls from the B unit to the cab of the steam locomotive and installing a B unit throttle where it is within easy reach of the steam locomotive engineer.  While not technically m.ued to the steam loco, the B unit is operated by the steam locomotive engineer via the diesel throttle located in the steam loco's cab.

Th B unit brakes are, of course, m.ued with the steam engine brakes, both the independent brake and the train brake.  I'm not sure if the B unit has dynamic brakes whether they can be operated by the steam loco engineer but I don't see why not.


Cheers


Roger T.

[rogertra]

As far as I know, the moveable parts of a switch are the points, and I don't recall ever hearing a railroader call a switch a turnout.  It's my understanding that turnout is a model railroading term used to differentiate between a track switch and an electrical switch.

None of that discussion, of course, addresses the OP's original issue.  

I agree with the turnout Vs switch nomenclature.   Turnout, while maybe a technical term used by engineers in suits and pushed on modellers by magazine editors to differentiate between a track switch and and electrical switch, no working railroader, the kind that get their hands dirty ever uses the term "turnout".   Even to the guys on the m.o.w. crew that build and maintain them.  It's always a "switch".

"Points" or in North America "Switch points" is the correct name for the moving part of a switch.

In have four or five rule books and they all refer to a "switch" never a "turnout."   

Uniform Code of Operating Rules - Definitions

Dual Control Switch - A power operated switch that, by use of a selector lever and a hand throw level, may be hand operated.

Facing Point Lock, Spring Switch - A locking device for a spring switch.........

Spring Switch - A switch equipped with a spring mechanism..........

Rules 104(A), 104(B), 104(D), 104(E), 104(F), 104(G), 104(H), 104(I), D-104, 105 and others all refer to a "Switch", not one rule refers to a "turnout".

So "switch" it is.  Leave "turnout" to people in offices wearing suits and to magazine editors.


Cheers




Roger T.

[Trainman203]

I've never hung around a railroad engineering office, but around the on the ground operation itself, both rail fanning and as a volunteer brakeman on excursion trains working with experienced heads, no one ever told me to get down and line the "turnout."  The same goes on the Midland Western.  We line "switches", not "turnouts."

Model Railroader magazine pontificates, among other pontifications,  that the term "turnout" avoids confusion with an "electrical" switch. I am proud to say that the Midland Western does not have that problem because our operation has NO electrical switches!     That's right!  NONE!   Our power goes to the track from the DCC command station by two wires and that is it!   . So the  term "switch" is completely safe on our railroad!

I still say that referring to multiple locomotives as a "consist" is a diesel age phenomenon.  One exception could be the long sad trains of dead steamers being hauled to the scrappers in the 50's.     By being the train itself, they could have been called "consist".

[rogertra]

I still say that referring to multiple locomotives as a "consist" is a diesel age phenomenon.  One exception could be the long sad trains of dead steamers being hauled to the scrappers in the 50's.     By being the train itself, they could have been called "consist".

Agreed, referring to multiple locomotives as a consist is indeed diesel era nomenclature. 


Cheers



Roger T.

[Hunt]

Roger T. -

Sensibly read the reference information you provide as the like I have read correctly use the term Switch.  None of it is referring to the entire trackwork, which is a Turnout. Read the info in the links I gave.

All but one of the "working railroader" people I have asked about Turnout vs Switch over the years properly use Switch.  That one had been on the job just two weeks and I was assured by his supervision he would know before he finished his training on his crew.

[Hunt]

I've never hung around a railroad engineering office, but around the on the ground operation itself, both rail fanning and as a volunteer brakeman on excursion trains working with experienced heads, no one ever told me to get down and line the "turnout."  The same goes on the Midland Western.  We line "switches", not "turnouts." . . .

Trainsman203,
Seems you are unknowingly using Railroad Civil Engineering definition as in context that is the proper use of Switch and "line the switch."

[rogertra]

Roger T. -

Sensibly read the reference information you provide as the like I have read correctly use the term Switch.  None of it is referring to the entire trackwork, which is a Turnout. Read the info in the links I gave.

All but one of the "working railroader" people I have asked about Turnout vs Switch over the years properly use Switch.  That one had been on the job just two weeks and I was assured by his supervision he would know before he finished his training on his crew.

Sorry, you've lost me.  Seems as though you are agreeing with me.  No railroader I know, and I know quite a few, uses the term "turnout", every one of them calls the whole thing a "switch".  From yard men, through train crews and M.O.W. staff.   The guy who installs my DCC for example, is a retired CPR locomotive engineer and he says the whole thing is a "switch".  As does another friend of mine, again a retired locomotive engineer from Kamloops BC plus other railroader friends I have across Canada but mainly concentrated around Toronto and Montreal.

When I was a volunteer at the Canadian Railway Museum near Montreal, we built "switches" not "turnouts".  When we were switching we lined "switches" not "turnouts".  Yes, it was a museum but we had several volunteers who worked for the CPR and CNR one of whom was the "Terminal Engineer" for the CPR, in charge of trackwork in the Montreal Terminals and he called them "switches".

So, if "switch" is good enough for use in rule books and for working railroaders, then to heck with what Model Railroader and any other magazine, publication, or website tries to tell me.  


Cheers



Roger T.