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Author Topic: wire gauges  (Read 6738 times)
jbrock27

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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2016, 02:40:11 PM »

As it is i have to clip off a couple of strands just to get the wire to be able to fit in to the connections on the back of the command station.

This would seem to me, to defeat the purpose then of using that particular gauge.  Why not use the next smallest gauge wire then?
I know there are a million writings out there about wiring; they should all make note we are not talking about Transformer Power Lines here that are bringing electricity to cities and homes.  We're talking a few feet, maybe a few yards, not miles of wire.  How much resistance builds over several feet between 18 ga and 20 ga or even 22 ga for that matter Roll Eyes

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James in FL

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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2016, 05:46:48 PM »

@jbrock27, I know your question was rhetorical, and people will only hear what they want to hear. Neither you nor I will convince them otherwise. Itís like beating a dead horse or talking to a rock.  Roll Eyes
I donít understand the why it is, of oneís choice, to do this either, other than they read on the internet, so it must be true. Therefore the ďrightĒ way.  Huh?

Dunno.

I donít want to take the spectator view on this thread.

But just to show others how silly this all isÖ
(Donít take my word, research this for yourselves) I will feel better if you do.

Letís, just for example, say oneís feeder lengths are 12in. (x2), so one would have 24 in. per feeder, and oneís choice is to use 20 gage AWG wire.
Letís also say oneís lokie is drawing 2A for a DCC/Sound equipped lokie running full speed (yes, Iím inflating that draw, most are probably less than half that) but again, just a hypothetical scenario.

Empirical data suggests that oneís resistance will measure .020 ohms. Therefore oneís voltage drop will measure 0.040v.

Using 22 AWG gage wire (same length, same current draw) will have a resistance of 0.032 ohms and a voltage drop of 0.064v.

0.064v drop. Not even a tenth of a volt.
Negligible, miniscule, unnoticeable, undetectable, and whatever other adjective one chooses to use to describe the ridiculousness of all this.

So to those that want to wire a 4x8 layout with Romex (12-2 or 14-2) for busses, and lamp cord (16/18 AWG) for feeders, knock yourselves out. I still donít see the advantage but rather the disadvantage as the op statesÖ
Quote
As it is i have to clip off a couple of strands just to get the wire to be able to fit in to the connections on the back of the command station.

Iím just suggesting, IMO, even if your CFO allocates funds to do this, those same funds could be better utilized somewhere else in the general fund account.
YMMV.
Iím done with this. Itís pointless to argue, there are no merits (cost vs. benefit). Again do your own research, and as alwaysÖ

Good luck
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 05:50:22 PM by James in FL » Logged
Vizzin72

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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2016, 06:08:20 PM »

James if you'll remember my original thread was asking can I use 22 gauge wire.  I didn't want to use anything larger but I did because a few people with experiment suggested it.  I had also noted that I was getting the same resistance from rail to rail as I was rail to feeder which means my multimeter can't even measure the difference.  However clipping off some of the buss wires to make it fit is not harming anything it's not the same as say putting a 1/4 inch fitting on a half inch pipe. 

The main thing here for me as with all things in life .... I don't want to have to fix anything down the road.  I just booked my layout up with one feed only to test everything and it works like a charm however over time maybe somthing does out that's why I put multiple feeders in.  I don't want to have to be tearing stuff apart and finding problems and fixing stuff and sticking feeders up after I have ballast and dirt down.
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jbrock27

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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2016, 08:03:13 PM »

You're right James, right down to the points about the horse and the dead rock.  Or was it rock and dead horse?  Rock n Horse?  Which is smarter anyhow? Cheesy

clipping off some of the buss wires to make it fit is not harming anything

No one said it is; but why do it in the first place, instead of just using the next smallest gauge wire?  You have demonstrated to yourself, the increase in resistance is immeasurable.

I don't want to have to fix anything down the road.  I don't want to have to be tearing stuff apart and finding problems and fixing stuff and sticking feeders up after I have ballast and dirt down.

And no one wants you to and no one want to see you have to.  My attitude about Feeders is add them as you find you need them.  I tried to get this concept across recently to TM203 but he had some difficulty grasping the concept.  You should anyway, be seeing how the layout runs BEFORE adding ballast (why dirt BTW?), then as you find you need to add Feeders you can.  That test operation should be taking place before ballasting anyway.   Even if for some inexplicable reason you later on found you needed a Feeder somewhere, all is not lost.  You can clean an outside section of rail with a small brass bristle brush, use some Rosin Paste Flux and solder where you need to.  Don't think that has ever had to be done before by a Model Railroader?

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Vizzin72

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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2016, 08:22:01 PM »

I don't want to have to fix anything down the road.  I don't want to have to be tearing stuff apart and finding problems and fixing stuff and sticking feeders up after I have ballast and dirt down.

And no one wants you to and no one want to see you have to.  My attitude about Feeders is add them as you find you need them.  I tried to get this concept across recently to TM203 but he had some difficulty grasping the concept.  You should anyway, be seeing how the layout runs BEFORE adding ballast (why dirt BTW?), then as you find you need to add Feeders you can.  That test operation should be taking place before ballasting anyway.   Even if for some inexplicable reason you later on found you needed a Feeder somewhere, all is not lost.  You can clean an outside section of rail with a small brass bristle brush, use some Rosin Paste Flux and solder where you need to.  Don't think that has ever had to be done before by a Model Railroader?


[/quote]

i'm testing it now ... so far so good.  why dirt ? i dunno I want it to look real.  my switching yard i'm modeling after the strasburg railroad in PA and there is no ballast in their yard its just dirt and stuff .... muddy water and stains from the coal.
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Vizzin72

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« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2016, 08:32:23 PM »

@jbrock27, I know your question was rhetorical, and people will only hear what they want to hear. Neither you nor I will convince them otherwise. Itís like beating a dead horse or talking to a rock.  Roll Eyes
I donít understand the why it is, of oneís choice, to do this either, other than they read on the internet, so it must be true. Therefore the ďrightĒ way.  Huh?

Dunno.

I donít want to take the spectator view on this thread.

But just to show others how silly this all isÖ
(Donít take my word, research this for yourselves) I will feel better if you do.

Letís, just for example, say oneís feeder lengths are 12in. (x2), so one would have 24 in. per feeder, and oneís choice is to use 20 gage AWG wire.
Letís also say oneís lokie is drawing 2A for a DCC/Sound equipped lokie running full speed (yes, Iím inflating that draw, most are probably less than half that) but again, just a hypothetical scenario.

Empirical data suggests that oneís resistance will measure .020 ohms. Therefore oneís voltage drop will measure 0.040v.

Using 22 AWG gage wire (same length, same current draw) will have a resistance of 0.032 ohms and a voltage drop of 0.064v.

0.064v drop. Not even a tenth of a volt.
Negligible, miniscule, unnoticeable, undetectable, and whatever other adjective one chooses to use to describe the ridiculousness of all this.

So to those that want to wire a 4x8 layout with Romex (12-2 or 14-2) for busses, and lamp cord (16/18 AWG) for feeders, knock yourselves out. I still donít see the advantage but rather the disadvantage as the op statesÖ
Quote
As it is i have to clip off a couple of strands just to get the wire to be able to fit in to the connections on the back of the command station.

Iím just suggesting, IMO, even if your CFO allocates funds to do this, those same funds could be better utilized somewhere else in the general fund account.
YMMV.
Iím done with this. Itís pointless to argue, there are no merits (cost vs. benefit). Again do your own research, and as alwaysÖ

Good luck


james what are you a wizard or somthing?
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brokenrail

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« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2016, 01:45:48 PM »

Hold both leads of your ohm meter together .It should be 0! 1.8 ohms is a indication of something going on somewhere .May be your meter leads.Your resistance should be  0 in the rail /wire connection .Any turn outs on your layout?
Johnny
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Vizzin72

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« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2016, 04:20:18 PM »

It's the internal resistance of the meter .... I can't imagine there being zero residence through the rails that's impossible.  I do have six turnouts but I measured lengths of track not connected to any of the turnouts as I was soldering several length of track together at the rail joints before placing them on the layout and the resistance was the same before and after connecting the turnouts.  Thanks for your constructive input though.
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jbrock27

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« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2016, 05:46:09 PM »

As I recall, when I had been soldering 3 sections of 9" straight Atlas n/s Code 100 track together and I tested a rail with the meter, I was consistently getting something like .003 OHMs.
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Vizzin72

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« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2016, 07:12:10 PM »

Your right ... You made me think ... I was actually measuring continuity on the same rail ... Across the rails I'm getting zero.  I think someone had said that before "there should be no resistance".  So it's all about voltage drop I guess.  I suppose then resistance doesn't factor in until there is a load in which case it's proportional to the voltage and current.  I suppose one cannot evaluate how adding feeders helps unless the VOLTAGE DROP is measured under load which I think is what jward meant when he said add feeders as you find it necessary
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jbrock27

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« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2016, 07:31:28 PM »

I think is what jward meant when he said add feeders as you find it necessary

I had said that Grin, but I am sure he feels the same way Grin
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Vizzin72

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« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2016, 07:33:32 PM »

sorry i said jward i meant to say jbrock ha ha ... your advise is always good
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jbrock27

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« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2016, 07:36:20 PM »

LOL!  Maybe not always, but I thank you nonetheless Smiley
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Vizzin72

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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2016, 07:38:30 PM »

NO PROB ..... in summary though "emperically" i think it definitely is best to have several feeds even on my 4x8 because already with only two engines just sitting still my track voltage is lower than when nothing is on the track.  what's the normal DCC track voltage 16 right?  i'm down to 15.5 right out of the gate and i think after i finish soldering the other feeders it will be much closer to 16 most importantly of course when they are running and going over turnouts.
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jbrock27

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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2016, 07:42:10 PM »

Mr. Ward's suggestion to install a switch to be able to cut off power to any section of track where you might have a loco parked is a good one.  As he had said, this way, the loco is not drawing anything.  I would consider that suggestion if possible.  SPST Toggle switches should do just fine for that.
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