DCC conversion of old Bachmann 4-6-0s

[chenashea]

Train rookie here again aka chenaschea:

I want to run at least 3 locomotives on my board and reading the literature it seems that the block wiring can get very tedious and complex.  Can my old 4-6-0 D&RGs be converted to DCC, how difficult and how costly?  What to avoid and what is best product approach.  This is mostly grandchildren level of interest (or so I tell my wife).

Please check my earlier post on  "Derailing" for some additional details and questions.

Thank You..chenashea

[StanAmes]

chenashea


The 4-6-0 is relatively easy to convert.  The hard part is removing the boiler to gain access to the motor and other wiring.

There are 7 to 9 screws to accomplish that.

Then remove the weight and the motor is easy to access.  Connect the track connection to the decoder and connect new wires to the motor to ensure the motor is totally isolated from the track.  The smoke unit is another two wires and the headlight connects to the decoder as well.

Check the pickups while you have it apart.  The overall performance of the locomotive can be greatly improved if you use some form of DCC Hybrid drive (on board backup power) 

Put it all back together and you are set to go.

Stan
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale

[altterrain]

oh boy! the infamous hybrid drive!



-Brian

[Jon D. Miller]

chenashea,
If you believe that simplistic explaination of converting to and operating your locomotives with DCC then make sure you put out some cookies for Santa.  Because if you believe that "story" then you sure must believe in Santa.

Now the Hybrid drive comes up again.  That's the band-aide to keep that great DCC converted locomotive operating.  But then what the heck  that axe will be ground  right down to the nub.

Ask about the cost of all the additional equipment you'll need to purchase just to get that locomotive with the decoder running.

JD

[the Bach-man]

Dear All,
Hybrid drive is simply battery backup for a DCC loco. People who don't like it don't have to use it, but there's no need to get personal.
Let's keep this cordil, shall we?
Thanks!
the Bach-man

[Solar]

Hybrid drive is simply battery backup for a DCC loco.

For those not familiar with this usage of the word "backup",  it here refers to having a little bit of stored energy available to get the train past dirty spots on the track.

I believe that large capacitors are also sometimes used instead of batteries.

[Jim Banner]

Solar, you are right on.  With large enough batteries, you can run for a long time without contact with the rails if you are using Hybrid drive.  Just like running radio control.  Of course, like radio control, you have to recharge the batteries from time to time unless you have enough intermittent rail contract to keep them charged.

I had hoped this past summer to run some tests on using the rails to carry only the DCC signal but not the power to the locomotives.  The power would be supplied by on board batteries.  While this would limit operating time to what is available with radio control, it would mean that one relatively inexpensive DCC command station could operate many locomotives and wanting to add one more locomotive would involve only the cost of batteries and an inexpensive decoder.  In many parts of the world, including my little corner (Saskatchewan) we often have both indoor and outdoor layouts for winter and summer respectively.  Thus we often have DCC command stations and throttles, even radio throttles, already at hand.  The biggest break through with Hybrid Drive in the garden may be that it makes DCC boosters unnecessary, even with large numbers of locomotives.  If you have ever flown R/C aircraft or driven R/C cars, then the idea of wireless control without radio waves may seem strange, but if you have ever used X-10 technology which send signals over power lines, then maybe it is not so strange.  One thing about railroads - we will always have the tracks and can use them for much more than just guiding our trains.

Now excuse me while I don my armor and crawl into my bunker.  I want to be ready for incoming from the R/C boys.   

[japasha]

Jim and others. Sending DCC signals down the track is a nice idea. The problem is that if the track is dirty you lose your signalimple as that.  The better idea is using an R/C carrier and having the DCC as a signal component. Back in the early 70s another man and I did extensive experiments with battery operated R/C HO trains. It worked very well, the systemm was very simple, much like the Big Hauler's R/C unit but much more robust. That's whats needed. Hybrid drive might as well be battery operated for all of the trouble you go to.

I prefer my R/C system for outdoor. It can run off battery or track by throwing a switch. Just need a different crystal for another locomotive.

[StanAmes]

Ok  time to perhaps clear up some misconceptions.

All systems (even DC) have two parts  The first part is the signal or if you will, the instructions to do something (in DC this is the amplitude of the voltage).  The second part is the power. Its the power that is used to run the trains.  These two parts can come from the same place (for example track DC) or from two separate sources (for example RC/Battery)

Traditional track powered DCC systems have both the power and the signal on the track.
Then there are radio control DCC systems such as Airwire which receives signal via radio and power via batteries or GWire which receives signals via radio and power either via the track or batteries.

DCC is really nothing more then a signal stream and it really does not matter how it is sent.  DCC can be track based, radio based or any combination.

Jim and others. Sending DCC signals down the track is a nice idea. The problem is that if the track is dirty you lose your signalimple as that.  The better idea is using an R/C carrier and having the DCC as a signal component. Back in the early 70s another man and I did extensive experiments with battery operated R/C HO trains. It worked very well, the systemm was very simple, much like the Big Hauler's R/C unit but much more robust. That's whats needed. Hybrid drive might as well be battery operated for all of the trouble you go to.

japasha

Your belief on how this works is not correct.  You are assuming that with dirty track you lose the signal.  While true with some products it is not true with other product.s  If you have a decoder that has capacitance pickup you will pickup the signal on dirty track, through ice on the track, over leaves, or even if one rail is plastic.

The DCC signal actually has some very interesting properties. It goes through almost anything. 

The problem in the past was relying on power from the track.  Lose power and the trains stop.

With Hybrid Drive you combine the properties of battery control and DCC control.  Its not very difficult, and certainly from a locomotive perspective not much different then traditional RC/batteries.  The only difference is much smaller power sources can be used.  There are even small supercap modules now available that will power the locomotive for a few feet which is normally much more then needed (except for icy track where loss of power can extend for a long time).  It generally takes 15 to 30 seconds after I power up the layout for locomotives with supercaps or batteries to charge.

I had hoped this past summer to run some tests on using the rails to carry only the DCC signal but not the power to the locomotives.  The power would be supplied by on board batteries.

Jim

Based on your observations last year I did just that.  I used a Bachmann E-Z Command and even connected one lead with a capacitor so no power was on the track.

In this case I used sub C batteries and the operation time was as you expect the same as one would have with a RC system because the power was the same.

In reality you would want the full 1 amp on the track as normal resistance will consume some power.

I now have several locomotives that automatically convert from DC to track power DCC, to track signal DCC to Radio DCC.  If multiple DCC sources are present I chose the track signal to win but you can do it either way.

This also means that as the various control systems converge, it does not matter much anymore.

Hope that helps

Stan
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale

[rperego]

I put a response regards DCC on your derailing post.  Although I wouldn't use track power outdoors, I've had very good luck with DCC indoors.  I've been reading the posts for some time now about hybrid systems,  but especially indoors I don't have power problems except with 0-4-0s going over switches at a slow speed.  This is easily solved by picking up power from the first car back but it doesn't matter with kids - all they want to do is go fast. 

If you want to have kids running trains on the same track, I would get extra cabs.  Even though the inexpensive Powercab will run more than 2 trains, the recall feature only works for 2 trains.  If you run more than two it gets a little exciting having to select a loco quickly.

I'm not sure this is true with other decoders, but if you use NCE in Big Haulers, hook the motor up reverse from what you would think - i.e. connect the decoder gray wire to the red motor wire, and the orange decoder wire to the motor black wire.  No big deal, you can set the reverse bit when you program the CVs, but if you do it this way you also have to change the forward and reverse light settings.

I've converted a number of Big Haulers, a Shay, a Porter, and the little Clementine, so if you want any help just ask - rperego@qwest.net. 

Bob