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July 06, 2022, 03:08:32 AM
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Author Topic: Need experts on Coupler issue  (Read 756 times)
Ralph S

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« on: April 18, 2022, 10:55:30 PM »

Okay, first off, I was doing quite good replacing couplers, that is, removing horn-hook type and moving to Kadee/Bachmann type couplers.
When I got to train car truck type couplers I ran across an issue, that I frankly don't know how to resolve or will try to live with.  I'm hoping you guys will not tell me that I have to replace the entire truck.  Below the images depict what Iím up against.  In short, the Kadee/Bachmann coupler inside diameter is larger than the pivot pin in the truck.  The middle image shows the differences of the inside diameters of the two couplers. 

The bottom two images with the Kadee/Bachmann coupler installed noting the slack in the coupler due to the large inside diameter of the coupler.    My research with Kadee left me scratching my brain.  (Oh, the reason I used a non-whisker coupler was to show the slack when installed in the truck.  I am hesitant to install the coupler with whiskers for fear Iíd damage it, trying to remove it.)  I am using the Kadee #148 and #5 (both shown above) and Bachmann Medium shank couplers. 

So, am I missing something?  I pray you will not tell me that I need to replace the entire truck a accommodate the new couplers, because that would entail me to change approx. 125 train cars that have this type of truck assembly. 
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Terry Toenges


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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2022, 11:33:22 PM »

Kadee talgo truck adapters are made for just that purpose.

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https://www.kadee.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=talgo+truck+adapters
« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 11:35:58 PM by Terry Toenges » Logged

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Ralph S

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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2022, 11:47:06 PM »

Interesting...This talgo adapter.   I don't understand how those fits, but I'll go order a few and check it out.   Stay tuned.

By the way, do you ever go to sleep?   Wink
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Terry Toenges


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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2022, 08:39:37 AM »

This shows it with a coupler pocket. It works the same way for your trucks. I can usually just press them in with my fingers and twist them without using their pic.
I'm usually up late and get up late. This morn I have a Doc appt. so I'm up early.
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jward


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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2022, 06:54:26 PM »

Using the talgo adapters is one way but it doesn't do anything to solve the inherent problems with truck mounted couplers.

A better way is to cut the coupler mounts off the trucks, and mount the couplers directly to the car floor using the Kadee draft gear boxes that come with the #5s. It's a bit more work, but the end result performs far better.
 
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Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
duff

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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2022, 03:50:00 PM »

Talgo-type trucks and couplers are probably ok when the cars are being pulled.  Their main advantage, as I understand it, is for smaller radius curves.  Pushing cars is a different matter, as the truck can twist, held straight only by the rails..  Think of backing up with a trailer.

If tight radius operating is needed, there are couplers that will allow the extended swing while still being body mount.
Based on my experience.
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Duff
Glotsville - Duffsburg Rail Road
Great Falls & Pinkland Railroad
Trainman203

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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2022, 12:08:23 AM »

Iím with Jeffrey on this one.
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Ralph S

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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2022, 11:51:35 PM »

Truck mounted couplers.   
Quote
Talgo-type trucks and couplers are probably ok when the cars are being pulled.... Pushing cars is a different matter, as the truck can twist, held straight only by the rails.
This is interesting, but I have a bit of priority issues that need more focus currently.   With 125 truck type or I should say ďTalgo-type trucks with couplersĒ, let alone all the other things Iím going to have to set aside, getting the train cars into a ďset shapeĒ is my main goal for now.   What I mean by ďset shapeĒ is cleaned up ready to roll with just the basic coupler adjusted to correct heights and with the ability to roll on straight track without issues.   In other words, I want to get all the train cars available to run.  Then set them aside and get the layout at least partially available.  Iíll worry about pushing cars with talgo trucks once the locomotives can move freely around the track.     

Understand, my experience with Talgo trucks and their couplers must be limited, since I have always thought that when most trains go into reveres they only do so on straight tracks or very limited curves like a turnout.   In my experience Iíve never seen a train (in real life, that is) reverse a train that is in a known curve or a really deep curve.   I would think the same would be true for a model train. 

By the way, Iím still waiting for the Kadee 212 and 230 to show in my mailbox.   I guess thatís what happens when you donít order through Amazon.
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jward


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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2022, 08:46:16 AM »

   

Understand, my experience with Talgo trucks and their couplers must be limited, since I have always thought that when most trains go into reveres they only do so on straight tracks or very limited curves like a turnout.   In my experience Iíve never seen a train (in real life, that is) reverse a train that is in a known curve or a really deep curve.   I would think the same would be true for a model train. 



Trust me. The real ones push cars into some pretty tight curves. There were, and probably still are, industrial districts in places like Baltimore and Philadelphia where they used rubber tired vehicles to move cars around because the curves were too sharp for a locomotive. Most places aren't that extreme but railroads aren't shy about pushing entire trains when they have to. I've seen entire trains of steel slabs (very heavy) being pushed up the ramp out of the steel mill where they were made by up to 5 locomotives. In addition, helper units in the middle and on the end of trains are very common in mountainous areas.

ON a model railroad we are often forced to use sharp curves to get into sidings we wouldn't otherwise be able to have. Most of us don't have the luxury of the rediculously broad curves on the railroads in the magazines so we're forced to deal with situations like these.

Getting your cars running is fine but this points out a common mistake beginners make. They want to get into model train so they start looking for locomotives and cars for as cheap a price as possible, Unfortunately, while there are some real bargains out there most of the cheap stuff is steep for a reason. Alot of it can be upgraded but that requires time and money. And many of the locomotives are so poorly designed that they can never be made to run well. By the time you factor in all the time and money spent, you'd have probably been better off just buying the decent quality cars in the first place.



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Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
BrendaFrampton1

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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2022, 09:38:46 AM »


I am assuming you have real reasons for being concerned about the difference in the diameter of the bar that holds the coupler in place, though if I were the one dealing with this situation I probably would not have been bothered by this incident. The Kadee coupler can still go into place with this, and simply will be a bit looser in its disposition.

Yes, you could get your hands on any number of random substances that you could wrap around the pin to reduce the slack, it just takes some creativity.

I can understand not wanting to be inconvenienced by needing additional stuff for optimal experience, but what I am just now figuring out about HO is how inexpensive and widely availed HO stuff really is. You could just type "HO PARTS" into ebay and get all sorts of mixed lots of screws, couplers, and other various bits that can aid you in constructing the best performance possible for your rolling stock. Metal wheels are $2 instead of $25 like they are in G scale.

I am thinking you could also find some tiny loop that you can fit into place for the coupler, its anyones guess where you could get this.

If it were me, and my novice attitude, I would have just put the coupler on there and not cared about the slack but I am also not involved in delicate actions like switching yards or other prototypical stuff. Good luck.
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Trainman203

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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2022, 01:27:50 PM »

Is it worth it to spend a fortune on a collection of poorly operating equipment to have frustration in quickly obtained but perennially defective operation?

Iíve known more than one long-experienced modeler who sold huge collections and tore down a huge never-finishable layout, to build a small manageable one with a small high quality collection.  One guy ditched hundreds upon hundreds of cars to get 20 perfect ones.
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jward


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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2022, 09:29:51 AM »

I think the answer to that question is that it depends on what you're looking for. I'm not going to spend $50 or $60 for a freight car that may be exquisitely detailed, but won't hold up under normal operating conditions. Nor am I going to buy those huge lots of cheap, substandard cars and locomotives you often see on ebay. Having grown up in this hobby with mostly Athearn and Roundhouse car kits, I have certain expectations on how my stuff should run. I am not above upgrading an older TYco or AHM car to meet those standards. But most of the time, I find that the newer ready to roll cars from Bachmann and others meet those standards right out of the box. And sometimes they do it for less than the cost of upgrading an older train set car.

I've found that, in order to run well both forward and backward, a car must have at a minimum knuckle couplers, RP25 wheels and proper weight. Most of the older train set cars have none of these minimums. I have limited time to spend on model railroading, and am far too busy doing other things to waste time and money trying to get an older piece of junk to work as well as the car I just bought at the hobby shop.

ANd the cars are the EASY upgrades. trying to upgrade most of the older pancake motored diesels is an exercise in futility.  And the crazy thing is that I see them going on ebay for as much as a much better quality diesel. For example, I have a soft spot for f9s. Bachmann made them. But you have to be careful, because many of the ones you see on ebay are the underpowered pancake motored ones. They suck. But the later ones with all wheels driven are pretty good runners. You have to know what to look for. FOr me the standard s I look for are: NO traction tires, body mounted couplers and all wheel power pickup (no plastic wheels.)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2022, 09:37:49 AM by jward » Logged

Jeffery S Ward Sr
Pittsburgh, PA
Trainman203

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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2022, 10:11:16 AM »

Well said Jeffrey.  I uphold the same standards.  Except maybe for BLI steam engines, beautifully detailed great performers that come with traction tires.  I donít like the tires, they make driver cleaning more difficult, but the performance and beautiful detail outweigh that slight negative.

Iíve upgraded many a blue box Athearn car by adding better stirrups, brakewheel and roofwalk, and lowering the body down on the trucks by filing the bolsters.  The oversized boxcar door tracks are still there, but the cars fit in very well with the better detailed cars like Atlas and intermountain.
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Ralph S

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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2022, 06:08:14 PM »

You folks are too much... Grin

Again I'm a novice, I support the standards, but I find that I just can't throw out all those older cars.  At least not yet.  Upgrading them I'm finding is also more costly that I thought, but I'm finding it quite entertaining making an old car function, or how it was stated: "...going to buy those huge lots of cheap, substandard cars and locomotives".  The catch is "buy".  I didn't buy the old cars, they were basically given to me and I felt obligated to take them.   Anyway,  I do believe that any of the old cars can be brought back to a good functional life again.
They may not be the Athearn's, Atlas or Roundhouse quality (I do have each of those, by the way) but with some changes like wheels, couplers, screws, washers, some weight gain or loss, and a little glue, the substandard versions can be functional.

Quote
...I would have just put the coupler on there and not cared about the slack...".
  I tried that.  If you connect several train cars with this slack, you will be able to pull the train cars, but you will catch "h..." pushing them.  The pushing of several train cars without the slack being there is much easier.  Trust me, it made a huge difference.

Just my experience.     
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Trainman203

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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2022, 07:29:15 PM »

Good stirrups and brake wheels donít cost much.  At least the ones I get.  Shop around.  They make all the difference in the world to the appearance of less expensive cars.  Stirrups and brakewheels are typically the clunkiest details on cheaper cars and are very easy to correct.

Good trucks, couplers, and wheels, though, while they do have a cost, are not a luxury.  They are a necessity.  Unless you donít mind trains coming uncoupled, track staying dirty, and having numerous preventable derailments.

Incidentally, I donít throw old cars out.  I have given some to friends that didnít suit operations anymore.  I still have 85% of the early ones, upgraded of course.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 07:32:11 PM by Trainman203 » Logged
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