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Author Topic: MTH to get BLI and Lionel tooling  (Read 10068 times)
Frisco


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« on: August 13, 2008, 06:09:09 PM »

 I know this is the Bachmann bord but I thought this needed to be told. By reason of the law-suit MTH will be getting the folowing BLI tooling 1.The Big Boy 2.the GG-1 3.the P-A 4.the F-A 5.the F-3 6.the F-7. They also got the former Lionel HO gas turbine and challenger. As soon as they find a way to put their system inside them they plan on selling them Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. You can view the rest of the story on Model Railroader.com On the subject of the MTH system if you can't say anything nice about it start your own topic.
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Santa Fe buff

N&W


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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2008, 06:51:52 PM »

Whoa! Man, and I liked the BLI looks of the locomotives. Well, I do love MTH, I would like to see what the turnout is. This is a very interesting topic, the best locomotives by MTH. I'm a good MTH fan, but I wonder just what this will do the all the effected companies.
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- Joshua Bauer
Frisco


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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 07:52:46 PM »

Whoa! Man, and I liked the BLI looks of the locomotives. Well, I do love MTH, I would like to see what the turnout is. This is a very interesting topic, the best locomotives by MTH. I'm a good MTH fan, but I wonder just what this will do the all the effected companies.
I do hope that it does not get BLI shut down. I am not woried about Lionel as they were not even producing the locomotives.I am shure that they will be better locomotives and I just emailed MTH to see if they will have the operating couplers and smoke.
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Santa Fe buff

N&W


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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2008, 07:59:13 PM »

It was so sudden, I just saw the BLI F3 2 weeks ago. Oh, I hope MTH makes it purr real good. Oh, and I don't want Lionel to die, I wanted to at least get my own Lionel set first...
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- Joshua Bauer
BaltoOhioRRfan


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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2008, 08:41:24 PM »

My opionion on this subject....MTH needs to get his head.....nevermind...not going to finish that one....but seriously....does he really need to put out more F7's, BIg Boys and Challengers? The market's been flooded with F7's by athearn. Big Boy has been done by Rivarossi(which IMO looks the best out of the many out there) Athearn, and BLI/BLI Blue Line, AHM, Older Rivarossis....Challengers have been done by Athearn, Rivarossi, AHM.(I know AHM and Rivarossi are the same, but i noticed with pure Rivarossi has more detail to them paint and detail wise then the AHM).

Also heres how i feel about MTH....I hate them with a passion. They put so many features in the engines you need their DCS system to run it. And from what i hear you cant run a DCC engine with the DCS system. (I know you can run this engines on DCC but you can't get all the features)

Bachmann is being smart. doing locomotives that have not really be done before ie that 4-4-0 Richmond and a highly detailed well running street car. Notice how many other manufactures are trying to meet that now? Con-Cor and Bowser both are now tyring to bring out the PCC's.

and one last question....why are Lionel and BLI Molds in the middle of this? I know that the plant in china makes Lionel BLI and MTH....but why are they in this?
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Emily C.
BaltoOhioRRFan
B&O - America's #1 Railroad.

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Conrail Quality


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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2008, 10:13:35 PM »

If I understand this correctly, the toolings are being given to MTH by MKT as settlement for some other lawsuit which I am not familiar with. QSI also seems to be involved due to MTH filing a patent-infringement lawsuit. Here's one story on it: http://www.trains.com/mrr/default.aspx?c=a&id=2665

As for me, being an N-scaler now, none of this really matters to me personally. But if I still modeled in HO, I would be very upset. I have no intrest in sound, and even less in MTH's DCS system. But MTH forces me to buy both, even if I have no intention of using them. Why should I pay $150 for electronics I'm probably just going to remove? Paying an extra $20 for a built-in DCC decoder I can take, but I do not want to have to pay $250 for a GG-1 with features I don't want!

Timothy
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Timothy

Still waiting for an E33 in N-scale
Atlantic Central

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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 09:17:57 AM »

Tim,

You are right. This is very bad for the hobby. Mike Wolf will now continue and advance his crusade to force people to use his control system. He will fail, but damage will be done to the hobby in the meantime.

I do model in HO, but the models mentioned are of no interest to me since I don't model the UP or PRR and don't "collect".

I have been known to buy BLI/PCM models and remove the DCC/sound when "stealth" versions are not available. But I only do that when the price is right.

MTH will not get any of my money until they build a loco that works correctly on 12 VOLTS DC!

Bachmann, Athearn and Proto get most of my loco dollars because they offer DC versions or DCC versions with easily removed decoders that did not jump the price through the roof.

This settlement seems strange since the NMRA has been challenging the patents held by Real Rail Effects and there is some indication the NMRA might win. As I understand it, this would put the idea of a sound decoder in the public domain and end all this stuff.

Sheldon
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 11:32:57 AM by Atlantic Central » Logged
Atlantic Central

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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 09:25:17 AM »

Frisco,

The purpose of message board is discussion. Discussion by definition means not eveyone will agree. They would be no need for discussion if everyone agreed on everything. People should express their views in a respectful manner, as everyone has in this thread, but you should not expect everyone who responds to just echo your view.

In fact you view is not shared by very many who have been in the hooby a long time and/or have a great deal invested in DC or DCC and have no intention of buying the MTH system. Especially since it will not run other brands of locos they already have.

And not everybody likes or wants sound, I know lots of people who don't like sound in smaller scales.

Sheldon

 
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SteamGene

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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 11:14:54 AM »

Frisco,
I have to agree with Sheldon on both Mike Wolf's tactics and his displeasure on attempted censorship. 
If you like the system, fine.  But others do not.  I remember the MR rating did its very best to avoid saying many bad things about the MTH PRR K4, but I got a sense they weren't sold on the idea. 
Gene
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Chief Brass Hat
Virginia Tidewater and Piedmont Railroad
"Only coal fired steam locomotives"
Atlantic Central

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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 11:31:01 AM »

Frisco,

As a point of clarifing the obvious, I have lots of models F7's, F3's, FA's PA's - none of them manufactured by BLI/PCM. Nor would I have ever considered buying any of those models from them, again, since I don't use sound/DCC.

So maybe there is a silver lining in this dark cloud, MTH will get those locos and only sell them with their system in them. Then Bachmann, Proto (Walthers), Athearn, Intermountain and Bowser (Stewart) will all sell more of their versions of these locos - all of which work on DC or are offered both DC and DCC.

Hear that Walthers, its time to fire up the dies for the Proto FA's and make another run!

Sheldon
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martin_lumber

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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 08:28:04 PM »

I've been noticing something here...

You guys are all mad at MTH for them pushing their DCS system on you, as you can not access all of the cool features with just DCC.

What happens with all of us DC guys who want a new model that is DCC/Sound only?? It's happened, and we are eventually messed into getting it, and paying more money for something that we don't care about (Sound and DCC)

You guys are going to have to live with it, and just use DCC and forget the DCS part. It happens to us, and we don't complain.

I am really sick and tired of the BLI/PCM BS that they have. Models announced 4 years ago still "need their tooling finished"

WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?

Phil
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Yampa Bob

Y.V.R.R.


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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 09:24:17 PM »

Since I have mostly Bachmann and a few Roundhouse, I don't have a "dog in the fight" so to speak.  At my old age, I have adopted a new philosophy, goes like this:

If my friend and I agree, no need for discussion we both go forward together.

If we don't agree, still no need for discussion, we just agree to disagree and go forward together.

   
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I know what I wrote, I don't need a quote
Rule Number One: It's Our Railroad.  Rule Number Two: Refer to Rule Number One.
Pacific Northern


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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2008, 10:22:07 PM »

There is some additional information coming forth on a number of other sites concerning the lawsuit.

What I found most interesting is that the tooling was not the property of BLI, it is/was in fact MTK's (Korean Brass).

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Pacific Northern
Conrail Quality


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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2008, 10:33:15 PM »

Wait, Bob, are you saying that when people disagree, they should say absoluely nothing ? Since when has debate been a bad thing? As long as it's kept reasonable and intelligent (no "MIKE WOLF MUST DIE!!!!!!"), people should be able to talk about why they agree or disagree. That's my philosophy at least; your mileage may vary.

Timothy
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Timothy

Still waiting for an E33 in N-scale
Conrail Quality


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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2008, 11:41:17 PM »

I would try to edit this into my last post, but the forum is acting up and refusing to let me edit, so I'll have to double-post (a pet peeve of mine). Someone on the Atlas forum found this on the Model Railroader forum, and I thought it would be only fair to repost it here. It's MTH's official response to recent events.

Timothy



In reviewing the posts on the various online forums over the past couple of days, it's clear that there are a number of misconceptions about M.T.H. Electric Trains, our recent settlement with Korea Brass/MKT and past rumors about our company that are causing some posters confusion and angst. Hopefully the following will clarify the recent legal actions that have elicited a variety of consumer opinions and better illustrate our market driven approach to building products that model railroaders can enjoy.

First, there are some posters who continue to wrongly assume that M.T.H. is engaged in lawsuits or threats of lawsuits towards the DCC community. Further, some in the market believe that M.T.H. has claimed certain attributes of the DCC protocol (typically cited in these claims is back EMF) as our own and have incorporated those attributes into our own patents. Such concerns and beliefs are nonsense. M.T.H. has not sued or threatened to sue anyone in the DCC community and M.T.H. has not incorporated DCC features as "our own" into our patents. In fact, in regard to our patents, we have always encouraged the marketplace to review our claims and if evidence of prior art exists that would invalidate those patents to present that evidence to us so that we can revise or retract the patents with the USPTO.

Secondly, there are some who believe that we are forcing our DCS system onto the marketplace by including it instead of DCC in our HO models. Despite M.T.H. promotions to the contrary, some folks continue to miss the fact that every M.T.H. HO locomotive is equipped with a DCC and a DCS receiver. This ensures that DCC fans can run our engines in DCC mode using any DCC controller available (and access all the features their DCC system is capable of controlling). While it would be a marketer's dream to believe that we have the power to force people to accept our "way", the reality is that the model railroad community will ultimately determine the appeal of our DCS technology. Contrary to some opinions, we are quite content if customers choose to run our trains under DCC should that be their operating system of choice. We believe that no matter how our products are run, the customer will be thrilled with an M.T.H. locomotive's operation and features and as a result will consider additional M.T.H. offerings in the future. Admittedly, we're not apologetic that our HO models have more features when operated under DCS than when operated under DCC. These features exist only under DCS control because DCC doesn't yet, and may never, have the ability to control the sheer number of features we build into every one of our engines. Such is the difference between an older form of technology and a more modern version. One only has to look at the cell phone industry to understand this analogy. Try surfing the 'net on your 1990s circa cell phone!

Next, the settlement between M.T.H. and MKT benefits the market, including Atlas customers, because it also settled the patent infringement claim between Atlas, American Hobby Distributors, QSI and Real Rail Effects. While the Real Rail Effects patent may ultimately be overturned, the lawsuit against Atlas, American Hobby Distributors and QSI was very real and cost those firms money to defend. We were able to resolve those disputes while also protecting ourselves against any future infringement suit Real Rail Effects may have aimed at us for the same reasons they went after Atlas, QSI and American Hobby. We tried very hard to create a resolution that would have eliminated the Real Rail Effects patent threat for the entire railroad industry, much as we successfully did with the Union Pacific trademark lawsuits two years ago (saving the manufacturers and ultimately, the consumer, additional and in our opinion, unnecessary costs). Unfortunately that goal proved to not be in the cards this time, but we take some satisfaction in knowing that at least those who have been sued were spared this leagal threat.

Fourth, some confusion exists in the market that Broadway Limited may have legal recourse against M.T.H. regarding the transfer of the tooling defined in the settlement agreement. This simply isn't true and it's important that the market understand that all of these tools were owned by Korea Brass/MKT not Broadway Limited. In fact, it was Korea Brass that originally created the Broadway Limited entity. There is nothing stopping Korea Brass/MKT/Broadway from retooling these same engines in the future. When M.T.H. releases these engines under our own banner, they should include a wide variety of improvements that will distinguish them from their previous incarnations that will appeal to consumers, even those who purchased them the first time around. For example, our GG-1 will feature operating pantographs that automatically raise and lower themselves on a direction change. We've long had this feature in our Premier Line O scale models and will be releasing it in our RailKing One Gauge (1:32 scale) GG-1 this month.

Fifth, M.T.H. has long believed that product choice is a benefit to the consumer and will grow the hobby. A good example of this can be seen in the introduction of the SD70ACe to the O scale marketplace in our Premier Line one year ago. Simply put, we gave consumers another choice from a previously produced, very expensive all-brass o scale model. Our model sold for around $400 and has proved to be the best selling diesel we've ever built. We worked with EMD, not a brass model, to design our engine and we believe the end result of an alternative SD70ACe o scale choice was a positive for the marketplace. We simply don't subscribe to the belief that the market shouldn't have choices for fear that a subsequent iteration of a previously produced or promised model from another manufacturer will hurt that manufacturer's feelings or disrupt their own ability to bring out the same model. It's ultimately about the consumer. The more competitors there are, the more choices you have. The more choices you have, the more features you get, and ultimately, the more value you receive for your hard-earned money.

Certainly each of us has the right to voice our concern regarding events in this hobby. We know there will be some who find our products unappealing for personal reasons. No product can appeal to every customer every time. In time, though, we trust that the market will see past the innuendo and inaccurate reports of our intentions and vote with their pocketbook based only on our model's attributes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Edleman
Vice President - Marketing
M.T.H. Electric Trains
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Timothy

Still waiting for an E33 in N-scale
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