Bachmann, how hard is it to put proper lighting in your trains??????

[jdmike]

In this day and age, you would think for the few extra dollers spread out over the hundreds of models produced, Bachmann could put decent and proper lighting in thier engines.  I am talking about nice bright LED headlights, no dim yellow ones.  Proper flashing Mars lights in the NKP Berkshire and GS4 Daylight engines.  Come on Bachmann, get with the 21st century.  I can buy a Richmond controls circuit that works on plain old DC power, but why should I?  I and most any other modeler would be glad to pay a couple extra dollers for a proper lighting set up that doesnt need aftermarket modification to look and operate properly.  Take the NKP Berk for example, you didnt ever seperate the two light LEDs to allow those putting sound/DCC upgrades that have a Mars light function to operate unless the modeler modifies the light board.   Are your product engineeers that out of touch with the modeling community?   It cant be that hard for your chinese factorys to produce a simple electronic circuit to make the mars light function and include it on every model that should have one.  That would be every dual headlight F unit, the NKP Berkshire that has the Mars light and the GS4 Daylight, along with any other upcoming model that might use it.   Your compitition did this on thier first runs of thier E units (Proto 2K), granted it was a poor effect, but they made the effort.   The engine looks great, lets take the next step with proper lighting from the factory, it cant be that hard.   For now I spend my $$ with other compaies to upgrade the lighting to what it should be from Bachmann

[BestSnowman]

I'm guessing the cost of more expensive lighting would probably push the price up enough that there would be fewer sales.

I'm also guessing that Bachmann re-uses the same lightboards in a large variety of locomotives. This allows them to purchase them in higher bulk at a lower cost. To support the dual headlights they'd need to either put a more expensive lightboard in all the locomotives or split their order on two different lightboards meaning lower bulk and higher costs. The DCC decoders would likely have to be upgraded to support multiple headlights and they would run into the same cost issues.

My point is those couple dollars can add up pretty fast.

[jdmike]

I disagree, if Minitronics can offer a mars light circuit for $35 and they are making money on it.  Then I am sure Bachmann, who can amortize the cost over many different models, keep the board seperate from the DCC board, or include it in the board, then its just a matter of running the proper wires to the lamp/LED and proper programing at the factory.  I wont go into brand battles, but if the movement of the hobby is toward more realistic models, IE sound, smoke, DCC ect.  Then I believe modelers would put up the slightly extra $$ if the features were there.   Kind of like BLI's blue line, sound and the lighting without the DCC.  Even Kato has made an attempt with thier recent N scale GS4 having a flashing mars light, it wasnt a very good result, but an attempt non the less.   All the youtube videos I watch show modelers spending thier $$ with other companies to upgrade the lights in ther models, and its not always a DCC upgrade.  Just $$ lost to Bachmann.  And more work for the average modeler who might like a proper bright headlight and working Mars or other effect light.   

[Jim Banner]

I am not convinced that the average modeller who models a road that never used Mars lights or flashing ditch lights would be happy paying extra

Jim

[CAB_IV]

I am not convinced that the average modeller who models a road that never used Mars lights or flashing ditch lights would be happy paying extra

Jim

If their railroad never used a mars light, then they won't have any mars light on their model to pay extra for.   

[ABC]

I am not convinced that the average modeller who models a road that never used Mars lights or flashing ditch lights would be happy paying extra

Jim

If their railroad never used a mars light, then they won't have any mars light on their model to pay extra for.   

Nope that's not how the system works in the real world though. In a perfect world maybe, but the improvements would cost all consumers more because either the cost of production would go up for all models, or all models who were effected by the change, which includes all models without mars or ditch lights, because they could be made cheaper when the other models were made the same as them.

[CAB_IV]

Nope that's not how the system works in the real world though. In a perfect world maybe, but the improvements would cost all consumers more because either the cost of production would go up for all models, or all models who were effected by the change, which includes all models without mars or ditch lights, because they could be made cheaper when the other models were made the same as them.

I beg to differ.  When CSX or UP licenses something, those models cost more than say, a Pennsy or Conrail model.   Similarly, i've seen trains with extra lights in other manufactures go for more, and simpler models go for less.

they don't raise the price on all SD40-2s just cause some of them have to be licensed.

Besides, if the railroad didn't have a mars light, then its not like bachmann is adding them unprototypically (are they?).    If its vice versa, than the bachmann product is not worth buying, get a better unit.


However, if they already have all the lighting and stuff in, and all it needs to do is mass produce a slightly different board, then why not? 

[ABC]

However, if they already have all the lighting and stuff in, and all it needs to do is mass produce a slightly different board, then why not? 

Licensing is completely different, lets not go there. Here's what I am saying say Bachmann currently buys boards for $10 each if they buy at least 500 of them. Say you have 2 locos that use this board one w/ a Mars light and one w/o. Say you make 250 of each model. Now if Bachmann only wants 250 of the original boards it costs them $12 each instead of $10. Then say the new boards for the locos w/ Mars lights cost $14 each for 250 then the price goes up for both as a result. In general the more amount of product a manufacturer purchases from a supplier the cheap the price per unit and vice a versa.

[jdmike]

Well, MTH seems to be proving modelers are willing to pay big $$ for engines with lots of bells and whistles.  I am sure the production numbers for the NKP Berk and the Undec version with the Mars, along with the GS4, would measure in the thousands.  If they ever decided to do the CB&Q 4-8-4 again, those had Mars lights.   The amortization of the different circuit board costs over even a single run of models, should only give a slight raise in price.  I still stand by my opinion that modelers would be willing to pay a slightly higher cost if the lighting system worked properly.  For it to work though, it would need to be a good effect and not one of the poor twin filiment "flip flop" mars light circuits that are a poor representation of the real light effect as viewed from the front of the locomotive.   Putting light control technology on all thier DCC boards would add a "value added" feature on future models.  They could add more than mars lights, also put gyra lights, single and double pulse strobes, prime stratolight and rotary beacons.   Then any diesel they do that would have had that feature would have it working.   Thier Compitition in the form of Athearn is doing this. All the RTR engines have beacon light castings on the roof if the prototype did, on the non sound engines, they are lighted but not flashing, on the sound equipted models they are flashing. Alteast they are easier to properly light over the Bachmann set up.     Modelers are demanding more and more detail, I think this needs to carry over to proper lighting on the models.

[jonathan]

Interesting discussion.

I tried to keep my fingers to myself on this one, but alas, here are my two cents.

I appreciate that Bachmann has chosen to offer quality equipment at an affordable price.  With a young family to care for, and just starting out on my second career, I like that I can still find equipment on my limited budget.  I especially like that this, and other companies, offer equipment that is DCC ready.  One day, perhaps I will be able to afford the jump to DCC and can easily install decoders and speakers (even flashing lights) as I see fit.

That being said, I ALSO appreciate the big dollar equipment offered by MTH, and others, that come with all the bells and whistles.  I have a wish list as long as my arm with the inside-and-out, superdetailed equipment.  If/when I ever get that kind of cookie jar money, you can bet I'll be first in line.

I think there can be room for both kinds of gear.  Both are necessary in this, the best of all hobbies.

How's that for middle-of-the-road?

Regards,

Jonathan

[Jim Banner]

Are your product engineeers [sic] that out of touch with the modeling community?

I would not be surprised if they were.  At least to the extent that they are out of touch with what people are willing to pay.  Left to the engineers, we could have models with functions that we modellers have not yet dreamed of.  Unfortunately, no one would be able to afford to actually buy one.

The marketing department is much more in touch with modellers.  Marketing works hard to promote the features the present models have and researches what would make future models sell better.

Then there is accounting.  Their job, in part, is to bring engineering and marketing back down to earth with estimates of what it would all cost and what the company could realistically afford to do.

Finally, some person or some body has to weigh all the conflicting information and make a decision.  This could be the company owner or the board of directors, who theoretically represent the owners (shareholders.)  With the right decisions, the company thrives.  With the wrong decisions, the company dies.

Sorry to say, one small voice crying in the darkness has little if any effect on the final decisions, even in a company as responsive as Bachmann.  Many small voices might have an effect.  And a proper, unbiased survey of how modellers vote with their wallets would almost certainly have some effect, depending on the number surveyed and how well they represented the average cross section of modellers.

Perhaps Bachmann already has plans in this area.  I don't know.  In the meantime, those of us who really want exact lighting can install it ourselves for a few dollars.  Or not, as we please.

Jim

[hawaiiho]

A couple of weeks ago, I purchased a new SD-45(DCC). To my surprise, it came with LED lighting.

I suspect that the reason you don't see more LED lighting is exactly what has been suggested in this dicussion.

Bachmann has a large stock of boards with the older light controls.

[sparkyjay31]

Interesting discussion.

I tried to keep my fingers to myself on this one, but alas, here are my two cents.

I appreciate that Bachmann has chosen to offer quality equipment at an affordable price.  With a young family to care for, and just starting out on my second career, I like that I can still find equipment on my limited budget.  I especially like that this, and other companies, offer equipment that is DCC ready.  One day, perhaps I will be able to afford the jump to DCC and can easily install decoders and speakers (even flashing lights) as I see fit.

That being said, I ALSO appreciate the big dollar equipment offered by MTH, and others, that come with all the bells and whistles.  I have a wish list as long as my arm with the inside-and-out, superdetailed equipment.  If/when I ever get that kind of cookie jar money, you can bet I'll be first in line.

I think there can be room for both kinds of gear.  Both are necessary in this, the best of all hobbies.

How's that for middle-of-the-road?

Regards,

Jonathan

I'll second all that is written above and add only this:  Add it yourself.  There is so much kitbashing going on is adding a LED that much of a big deal?  But I'm modeling the steam era and have no need for MARS lighting.  Perhaps I'd feel differently if my roster were diesel.

[Doneldon]

The modest cost for adding strobes or Mars lights seems to me to make the lengthy rants kind of ridiculous.  Many (most?) modelers won't want the super elaborate set ups and they won't want to pay for them so a minority of others can have them.  Put your time and energy into upgrading your loco rather than griping.  And when you do gripe, use language in a way that makes you look credible.  Spell check and grammar check are free features, after all.  Use 'em!  In the alternative, why not develop and market a simple auxiliary light board for the masses who want more special lighting effects?

Licensing isn't an issue any longer; MTH more or less got the UP to back down on that and nobody seriously believes the BNSF will try to squeeze a few bucks out of the model makers.

Last, thank you to Jim Banner.  Jim, your expertise,  wealth of experience and sage comments are great to read.

[sparkyjay31]

It's just my opinion, but with the time and energy put into the rant here he could have already installed the MARS lighting and been happily on his way...