Max slopes for new HO engines?

[jward]

i would strongly advise against using ceiling tile grids for support. your layout is only as good as its foundation, and those grids will be way too weak to do the job. remember they are designed to support relatively lightweight tiles. trains, buildings and especially scenery will add alot of weight. build a wooden or steel frame with strong materials. i usually build my tables from 1x4 pine, and they are strong enough to walk on.

[Jerrys HO]

If you plan on doing mountains and heavy scenery the water used in most scenery detail will absorb in the tile weakening it also.

Jerry

[rbryce1]

OK guys, a little more explaining.  My field of profession is actually structural and architectural engineering.  Currently I am a Commercial Building Plans Examiner for Pinellas County, certified by the State of Florida, which means I deal with loads every day.

First, you would be surprised at how much weight the suspended ceiling grids can hold when only spanning 24-30 inches.  Not the "L" shaped edging, but the commercial grade "T" shaped main grids.  I agree, they are not that strong when spanning 8 feet, even with suspension wires, but even then they hold the weight of 2-3 24x48 inch four tube fluorescent light fixtures.  If they are only spanning 24-30 inches and are supported from the bottom side with wood (like placing them on top of the ceiling joists, not suspending them from the bottom of the ceiling joist), they can easily carry 40-50 PSF, weights which my scenery in the town area will never see on my layout.  I have actually tested this by supporting 2 of my 20# dumb bells with no problems between my garage trusses.  The main purpose behind using the grids in that location is ease of removal and reinstalling the scenery panels as needed.

Second, I will not be using actual ceiling tiles, but 3/8" plywood squares under a layer of 1.1/2" foam.  Without the height of the foam, the grids would be taller than the plywood squares and stick up at each joint.  All the mountains, track and anything else needing extra support will be of 3/8" plywood base with 1.1/2" foam over a 1x4 wood frame.

At least I believe that will be strong enough.  If you guys still feel it may be a problem, I will definitely think it again, as there is no substitution for experience, something you guys have much more of in model railroading the I.

[electrical whiz kid]

After many unsuccessful attempts to tame the "size monster", I have come to the realization that I was trying to cram too much diversity into the given space.  Being fortunate enough to have a room over the garage to dedicate to this hobby, I have discovered how easy it is to let things get out of hand; then it becomes a bitter enemy doing EXACTLY what you tell it to do.  My thought has gravitated to planning not from what I think I ultimately want, but rather from an explicit theme 9suc h as a freight yard, et al), and working out from there-all on paper first, I might add! 
This layout I am planning is taking a great deal of forethought-and I am glad it is-to do right.  All i know is I am tired of finding I have made many and sundry mistakes by approaching it with nothing more than a gleam in my eye.
As was said, 4% grade is a wee bit on the heavy side.  I have factored into my planning about a 2% mainline grade, and none on "work" tracks.  Keep it simple?  Oh boy, yes!
RichieC

[electrical whiz kid]

Bob;
Be careful what you say in here!  The T-sections may be strong, but you cannot install flourescent fixtures-or any other kind of fixtures for that matter-without independantly supporting them by wire, chain, etc. from the grid!  This is a building, electrical, and fire code mandate.  I know you probably wouldn't do it, nor would I, but someone else reading this just might.  Innocently...  Enter disaster...
Rich

[rbryce1]

Electrical Whiz kid,

Don't really know where this is going, but I do believe I referred to ceilings supported with wire.  I didn't think I suggested installing fluorescent lighting on my layout, or in a ceiling without proper support.  I think you are reading far more into my post that there is there.

I am going to use the suspended ceiling grids in the manner I described unless someone points out why this is a bad idea.  Some have raised their concerns, and I appreciate it, but I do not feel those concerns are a problem for the way I am installing the grids in my layout.  I feel I have an extremely buildable plan, well thought out for what I want to do and not overly complex for the area I have.  When I am finished with the design on paper, every piece will have fitted to the 1/8th of an inch, which is why I am confident my layout will work structurally, physically and cosmetically before I ever start.  I have no grades over 3% where engines only will be used and no grades over 2% where rolling stock will be used.  

Hopefully my approach will prevent me from making the mistakes you indicate happened to you before they happen to me.   Once my plan is done in all these areas, I will then start construction, not before...without fluorescent lights!

Many have provided me with invaluable concerns which did result in both minor and major revisions to my plan.  I am really trying to do my homework on this, but as I said before, this is still new to me, and I appreciate you sharing any items which caused you problems in the event I have not considered them.  As I frequently say at work, it's a lot easier to fix paper than concrete   !

[Doneldon]

rb-

Yes, subs will teach you all about tight clearances, even the big nuclear boats. I've never been in a
nuclear sub but I had to clear others for sub duty when I was a psychologist in the Navy.
                                                                                                                                    -- D

[jonathan]

Doneldon,

Sorry to get personal, but were you in Great Lakes, in the early '80s?

Regards,

Jonathan

[rbryce1]

No, but I was in the early 70's, going to Engineering Propulsion School.  Early 80's I was stationed at KNOLLS Atomic Power Laboratory in Windsor Connecticut, then at the US Submarine Base in Groton, Connecticut, USS Daniel Webster.

[electrical whiz kid]

Hi, Bob;
Not wanting to get into a dumb argument, I am retracting my last comment, so consider it never written .
Richie C.

[rbryce1]

No, I never took it that way.  You had some good points, I just didn't think you were following what I was going to build.  Sometimes it's hard to understand how others will interpret something you write, because I know what I am saying and doing, but others reading it may not read it the same way or understand it up front.  If you have a comment, please write it.  If I think you are misunderstanding my post, I'll need to explain it better.

I take it from your handle and email address you are an electrician. 

[Doneldon]

Sorry to get personal, but were you in Great Lakes, in the early '80s?

Jonathan-

Yes. I was at Great Lakes from mid 1973 until Sptember 1975 when the Navy kicked me out.

                                                                                                                                -- D

[jonathan]

Ah,

Just wondering.  I went thru boot camp at Great Lakes 11/83-1/84.  Started off in the Nuc Power Program, but had subsequent eye issues, and ended up in an administrative rating.  There was a chance that we may have met and didn't know it.  Sorry to get off topic.

Regards,

Jonathan

[Doneldon]

jonathan-

You wouldn't have wanted to meet me. My job was throwing people out.

                                                                                                 -- D