Quote from: Jim Banner on March 02, 2007, 11:47:55 PM
Seeing this is a Soundtraxx Sierra thread, maybe Mathew (0V) will let me talk about my experiences with Sierra.

Certainly.  That's what we're talking about here.  Actually it sounds like you've discovered how well Sierra works even in its current iteration, with the control system of your choice.  I bet it's nice to have direct control of things like the whistle, and a charged sound battery at any speed.... which is something I've said about my radio controlled locomotive as well.  Tell you what.  You clean your track, I'll charge my batteries, and we'll both run, and maybe we'll remember why we do this.

Since all three control systems do so well with the Sierra (this generation, and presumably next) and the Phoenix ... perhaps if the intention is to sell locomotives equipped with sound that this would be the way to go.  Simply add your own high current decoder, Radio controlled throttle, or ... well, nothing for track power.... and enjoy the "music."  That way we can leave the mud unslung, the figures unreworked, and the teeth unclenched.

By the way ... a straight track powered locomotive with triggered sound effects (reed switches and all that) is a lot of fun to have when you're either in "railfan" mode, running a demonstration where you have to watch your spectators more than the trains, or when you're working nearby on your latest battery (or decoder) conversion, and like to have the train pass by periodically. 

Matthew (OV)

Quote from: StanAmes on March 02, 2007, 08:02:47 AM

As for the Bachmann Sound on Board decoder based on Tsumani technology, it is clear that this product is not designed in its current form to support the radio control market. There are no external triggers for the sound functions, nor ability to independently control the whistle or bell in DC mode.  I would expect however that just as there are users that do not want this DCC decoder there are others that would love to add one to their 2 truck shay.  If you want a model now that only comes with a Sound on Board decoder, its takes only a few minutes to remove the decoder and I am sure you can sell it on Ebay.

Stan,

First, let me take a moment to thank you very little for completely disregarding my request to leave your crusade against anything that's not DCC out of this thread, and finding it necessary to once again take a pot shot at radio control.  It is abundantly clear to me what your opinion is of anything that isn't DCC, and I'm reasonably certain I know why .... as is anyone else who's read your multiple posts on the subject. 

The new decoder is not simply a problem to those using radio control, as you very well know.  It's also a problem to those of us who still use track power (or, even Bachmann's EZ-DCC,) as even turning the volume up or down requires several hundred dollars worth of equipment purchase, or a trip to a railroad equipped with DCC to make the adjustment.... or several such trips, as things in need of changing are discovered on the home road. The lack of a mechanical chuff input is a problem for users of ALL types of power, as it is impossible to achieve the same degree of synchronization of sound with the mechanism of the locomotive without it. 

My layout is primarily track powered.  I have a battery powered locomotive, and would like to have more of them ... but as it stands now, the majority of my fleet is track powered, not Battery/Radio, and this has been as important an issue to me as it has been to the Battery/Radio guys, because of the lack of external controls, and programmability. 

So, once again, and listen this time, THIS IS NOT ABOUT R/C BATTERY VERSUS DCC.  This is about clarifying a misunderstanding YOU started (and yes, two months later, I notice your explanation of this above) about Sierra, which, incidentally DOES work quite well for RC/Battery and Track Power users.  The new "quasainami" system ONLY works beyond basic sound production for those equipped with a full DCC system with programming capabilities.  For those of you out there who have such systems, and enjoy the new system, bully for you!  The rest of us are, as you point out, now relegated to spending an extra $100.00 for a module we can't use, and then cutting it out and attempting to sell it on E-Bay, where the purchaser will experience all of the above mentioned issues, have no chuff synchronization, and also have no warranty, and no hope of service intervention in the event of a current overload and failure, which "new math" notwithstanding, seems to be a very real possibility, given the power demands of some locomotives and the railroads on which they run.

Not attractive. 

Now.... as I said in my original post, THIS discussion is supposed to be about the continued viability of the Sierra product line.  If you wish to continue to cast aspersions on those of us who don't use DCC please take it to one of your other threads on the topic, or start a new one, so that I don't have to read it.  I'm spending all of my backward, anachronistic, un-hip, not with the times, technology fearing model railroad energy on my out of date track powered and radio controlled equipment.

Hopefully, since my attempt to be nice about this failed the first time, this will be a bit more clear.

Matthew (OV)

You have to remember that the more faithful you are to the prototype with respect to things like suspension, front and rear pilot truck swing, etc, the larger radius the model will require.  The RY model is supposed to be VERY faithful to prototype, hence its large requirement for track curvature.

Conversely, there have been some very LARGE engines by LGB that were quite literally hinged in the middle so that they could be made to go around the R1 2' radius curves ..... but (thinking here of the Harz locomotive) the appearance of the model when it does this is compromised a great deal, as you can see the drive train swinging well out from under the body of the locomotive, and the cars following the wheels on a seperate draw mechanism.  (I'm not knocking LGB, incidentally... they're just going for something different with that model than most of us will be with the K)

What you go for is a balance .... most large scalers dont' have the space for 20' radius curves (unless you're Jens Bang or something, and the entire Northwest is your playground..... ) so you make easements where it doesn't compromise too much what the model looks like .... notice that on the existing 2-8-0 ("Connie") that the front pilot truck has a center pin and cover in the middle of the pilot deck, but underneath has a swinging mechanism that allows it to move side to side, and therefore to take tighter curves.

The K-27 is not much longer than the 2-8-0, but does have a trailing truck, and more overhang ... and will therefore require larger curves.  At the same time, though, there have been 1:20.3 models of the K that will take 4' radius (8' diameter) curves quite successfully.  Your EBT locomotives aren't much different, dimensionally, and will probably follow something similar in the 4' to 5' radius range, if for no other reason than appealing to the greatest number of model railroads as possible without sacrificing what the model looks like. (What you think of such a large piece on a 4' radius curve is open  for debate......)

While I am *not* an official voice for Bachmann, I base my argument on the fact that the Accucraft K27 is a 1:20.3 K-27 and has been made to take the kind of curvature I'm describing.... so before one discusses the finer mechanical points and differences, at least the basic layout and dimensons of the piece (should?) be at least very similar!

Matthew (OV)

I thought we did this already .... but just in case not:

1.)  Sierra is not "on its last legs" and "dead end technology."  People who claim to be in the know, and say such things, are not.  Sierra in its current form will likely give way to something more advanced, much in the same way that the Phoenix 97 gave way to the 2K2 (and now the P5) .... so in that sense, it may be becoming obsolete IN ITS CURRENT FORM, but the concept is here to stay, and will have more sounds, and more features coming, as Soundtraxx is well aware that there's more to life than DCC, particularly in large scale.  I have this from a Vice President and part owner of the company, who was somewhat dismayed to hear that people claiming to know their intentions and directions would broadcast information so contrary to their actual thinking.

Is that direct enough?

2.)  As to the misunderstanding that generates the "Call Bachmann....no, call Soundtraxx....no, call Bachmann" nightmare, in the same conversation with the same individual, it's being worked on.  I'm not sure what the solution will be (meaning who you'll need to call) but one way or the other, someone will provide support depending on what they work out.

3.) If you really want Tsunami, Soundtraxx is planning to release one that will handle higher current, with the idea that it will work in a large scale locomotive.  It's not here yet, and it's not the one that's in the 55 Ton Shay... but if you really want one, you'll be able to have one.  The important point is you don't HAVE to have one..... if what you want is Sierra, it WILL be available to you.

Personally, if I wanted Westside, a bottle of red paint and a sheet of decals are a lot cheaper than the Quasinami..... and the Black Undec is available without it.

This thread is about recently broadcast information regarding Soundtraxx and the longevity of the Sierra sound system line.  The holy war for control methods is just a couple of clicks up the list; if what I've said makes you feel you have to stick up for your favorite control method, please do so there.  All I'm trying to do here is publish the answer I got when I asked Steve's questions of a reliably important person at Soundtraxx, who I called with the intention of finding out whether some of the stuff floating around on this, and other forums, was in fact accurate.

Matthew (OV)

"Conductor Engine 6614, three cars to a stop.  Two cars to a stop.  One car to a stop ... That's good 6614, stop.  6614?  Hey.. STOP!  Oh 6%$!!

(crunch)

"6614 to Conductor, your radio's cutting out .... uh, did we lose the air, or did you dump it?  How close to the end of the siding are we?"

For Sale:  New commercial/industrial office condo with newly fitted rail access.  Priced to sell, inquire within.

Matthew (OV)

Many feed stores have "Hay Cubes" for feeding horses ... as-is or with a little judicious glue and paint, they'd probably do the trick in a pinch.

Or, some white glue and water mix, a large plastic ice cube tray, some real hay, and a pair of scissors would probably do the trick.  Just remember to spray the ice cube tray with some kind of non-stick coating first.

Matthew (OV)

Ah, right... I've converted mine to AMS couplers, pulling AMS cars with body couplers.... I forget that "as delivered" it's a bit different!



Matthew (OV)

I'm not the Bach Man, but I can get you started.

You will have NO trouble with the following on small radius curves:

0-4-0 Sidetank(S) and saddletank.
2-6-0 "Industrial" mogul
2-4-2 (Any version, if you can find one)
Trolley cars
Gandy Dancer hand car
Two Truck Shay
Two Truck Climax
Two Truck Heisler
Rail Truck

You will be able to run these on small curves, but will be happier with larger ones:

Anything from the first list, above PLUS:

4-6-0 "Anniversary" and all previous.
45 Ton Diesel (Light... will have trouble pulling cars.)

You will need curves LARGER than 2.5' radius (5' diameter) to run any of the following comfortably (meaning there are ways to make some of them take the 5 footers, but they protest doing so, and look awkward trying: )

4-4-0 American
2-6-0 Spectrum Centennial Mogul
2-8-0 Outside Frame Consolidation
45 Ton Diesel (hauling cars)
Shay (3 truck) (You MAY have luck with this on smaller geometry.)

Corrections and additions welcome, as always.

Matthew (OV)

Now that it's working again, take a look at:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/gallery/album08

That sounds about right.  A 1:20.3 locomotive is moving a lot slower in scale than even a 1:29 locomotive travelling at the same actual speed would be going in scale....

And, if that doesn't twist your brain a bit ... nothing will.

This may be a bit easier to get your brain around....

For a 1:20.3 scale locomotive, take a section of (old) track and mark it with a dremel every 23 inches... this will simulate the rail joints every 39 feet that allowed railroads to put them into 40 foot cars ....   now run your locomotive at your scale 7 mph, and listen to the "click clack" as the wheels cross the joints.  You'll notice that it sounds like a train going between 5 and 10 mph....   

To achieve the same effect with a 1:29 scale train you'd have to put the marks closer together, about every 16 inches..... and then run the train proportionally slower to make the shorter distance give you the same "click clack" rhythm of the larger scale train travelling the longer distance.

Interestingly, I knew a locomotive engineer who used his musical background to set a tempo of 1 "click clack" per second to approximate 25 mph (actually 26.something but who's counting) when running a locomotive with no speedometer.

Back to your original question .... picture yourself in the cab of your shay, and watch the relative speed of the world going by. (If you have trouble doing this, a video camera on board can help) .... you'll see that it really does approximate the slow speed at which you'd run a Shay .... up around 15 miles per hour, small parts would likely start flying off!

Matthew (OV)

Finding 100 people would be easy.  Several of the "regulars" here have been lobbying for some time for an EBT mike ... and have hoped for some time that it might be following the "locomotive that must not be named" that's coming later this year.

A campaign to provide photos, drawings, slogans, examples, and historic justification is already underway.  When Kevin and Lee see your post, I'm quite certain that they'll get your "I Like Mike" membership kit right out to you, and you can join the "Millie Man March" on Philladelphia.

Welcome aboard ...

Matthew (OV)

I posted one of the headache causing formulas.... and I myself use a "Speed Scaler" .... bought it from the Accucraft booth at the Springfield show years ago .... it's a bicycle speedometer mounted on an aristo truck with a talgo mounted coupler .... you can set it for whatever scale you like (1/29, 1/22.5, 1:20.3 etc.) because it asks for a calculation of the bicycle's wheel to calibrate it....  it comes with a table for the correct values.

Once programmed, you couple it to the rear of your train, and it displays the speed (and distance, even) on the screen as the train passes by!

Matthew (OV)

Not quite that complicated if it's only distance you're scaling.

5280 / 87 = 60.6 feet per scale mile.

Divide by 10 to make it manageable.... 6.06 (round to 6, unless you're good enough with a stopwatch to click the difference between 6' and 6'.72"; I'm not!)

Measure a section of track six feet long.

Using a stopwatch of some kind, time how long the train takes to go 6 feet.

Multiply by 10.  This is how many seconds the train takes to travel one (scale) mile.

Divide 3600 by the number you got.  (3600/(seconds to travel 1 scale mile))

Your result is in scale miles per hour. 

Example:  Your train takes 12 seconds to travel 6 feet.
12 * 10 = 120.
3600/120 = 30 scale miles per hour.

Now ... there are those astrophysicists among us (and some Metaphysicists as well) who will discuss the scaling of time as well as distance.... leading to fast clocking, and readings in scale miles per scale hour .... which WILL make your head spin.  For me, just scaling  the distance makes things work very well, and realistically!

Matthew (OV)

Oh, and I know I'm not Jim, btw ... but since he's not been in yet....

Quote from: Steve Stockham on February 14, 2007, 08:00:28 AM
The diesel didn't do well AT ALL with most Spectrum buyers. Only recently did they manage to get rid of them with a "after after closeout firesale" for around $60 each! Considering the MSRP was $700 (or was that $800?) well, you can see where I'm going with this!

Shame nobody liked the 45 Tonner ....



Someone ought to open an orphanage! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Matthew (OV)

Quote from: Great Western on February 14, 2007, 06:43:01 AM

Greetings folks,
                              Just for us Bachmann afficionados on the east side of the Atlantic Ocean please inform us (some may know of course) where Mudville is.  It doesn't sound a suitable place for a vacation     
   Actually with all the very heavy rain we have had in the UK recently it could well apply to anywhere here.   

   On the subject of locos (in G scale) the Bachmann range has few diesels to offer other than the 45T which is 1:20 and not the Big Hauler size.
   I am, however, quite happy with my two "Annies" but would prefer another diesel other than one in 1:29 scale.

Er, well... there are quite a lot of 1:22.5 selections (or close enough to work well with 1:22.5) .... from four wheel "critters" right up to, well, very large ....



Bachmann's large scale "Spectrum" offerings tend to point, thus far, toward a slightly older, and more steam oriented flavor of models.... and we've managed to keep them quite busy enough with those!  Personally, I'd love to see some MLW/Bombardier diesels in 1:20.3 someday, but they have a lot of ground to cover before that!

Matthew (OV)

Oh, and Mudville...  while no one knows exactly where it is, the little burg immortalised in Earnest Lawrence Thayer's Casey at the Bat tends to stand for hopes dashed at the critical moment ....   Let's hope that the Mudhen is not from Mudville, and that unlike Casey, will be a resounding success!