Being somewhat of a B&M and NH fan, I remember seeing firsthand, these locomotives at work, and cannot remember any of them pulling world-class trains-passenger or freight.  In fact, about three or four passenger cars-and wood at that-was about all I saw the B&M Moguls pull-unless they were in tandem. Most longer B&M passenger trains were pulled by Pacifics or other heavier motive power.
Rich C.

Speaking of pulling power I decided to do a test today.

I took one of my 2-6-0s, which has had some weight added to the front of the tender, needed on all Bachmann steam as well as the pilot truck spring removed, which I also do to all springs on trucks of all steam and the engine moved, on straight and level track, without any wheel spin, 14 freight cars plus caboose.

All the cars are equipped with metal wheels.  All weighted to around the NMRA recommended practice but one or two weigh more as they have visible loads added to them.  The cars were just randomly picked and are from an assortment of manufacturers.  I just coupled up to a cut of cars on one of my yard tracks and pulled the 18 cars.  I used the 2-6-0 and with some wheel spinning, it did pull the track clear.

I started with eight cars and started adding cars but quit at 14 as my 2-6-0s are assigned to branch line way freight and passenger service and rarely need to pull more than eight cars plus van or a baggage car or combine and one passenger car.

So, add some weight to the tender, remove the pilot spring and you should get similar results.  BTW, I add weight to either side of the tender, between the shovel plate and the sides of the tender and as far forward as I can.  For weight I use pennies, suitably cut to fit using metal work shears as required.


Cheers

Roger.

Roger, by 'metal work shears' are you referring to the same things that you might know as also called 'tin snips'? 
Thank you.

Quote from: jbrock27 on February 15, 2014, 07:25:38 PM
Roger, by 'metal work shears' are you referring to the same things that you might know as also called 'tin snips'? 
Thank you.

Yes, why not? 

I have access to bench shears so it was easy.

Cheers

Roger.

Ok.  I was not sure if bench/metal shears are any different than tin snips.  I have tin snips.
And sure enough, even if a little tough to get the penny to stay 'flat' in the jaws of the snip, they do work to cut them. 
Thank you again for the tip Roger.

Brock;
Those are English pennies-last I remember, those beauties are a big as a horse! 
Last I knew, a bench shear is a rather large, stationary "I mean business" tool.
Rich C.

Quote from: electrical whiz kid on February 16, 2014, 12:16:53 PM
Brock;
Those are English pennies-last I remember, those beauties are a big as a horse! 
Last I knew, a bench shear is a rather large, stationary "I mean business" tool.
Rich C.

Yeppers.  The bench shear was overkill but heck, it was there, why not? 

And I used Canadian and probably American pennies as well, I wasn't paying much attention.

Cheers

Roger

Thank you RichC.

Ok boys, so are "bench shears" different than the "metal shears" Roger initially referred to?

Really Roger, "not paying attention" using a tool that sounds like it could easily cut your finger off with one slice?

Roger Travis;
I cannot speak for you or anyone else here, but I (generally) try to take a logical approach to things in general; this hobby notwithstanding. 
Springs are designed into a specification by better, more knowledgeable men and women than I.  I am merely an electrician, and for this discussion, have no other certification; hence, just a layman.  To me, the spring offers the only force to keep the pony and/or trailing truck from re-mapping the grade.  I have tried it both ways many times on different engines, and have come to the conclusion that trackwork is usually the culprit with this situation.  There are generally three components to any plane, and to go "light" with any of them will invite frustration, or a new approach to "kit bashing"...  Best advice I can offer based upon experience, many tears shed, and many more blue streaks flung into the air, is to not spare the horses when you are doing your trackwork-as close to perfection as you can get sill help ensure good dependable smooth running.  Be especially good when doing long tunnels; Murphy does indeed live...in tunnels especially.

RIch C.

Rich C.

I appreciate your comments but the idea of removing springs is not mine but comes from several articles published in the model railroad press discussing improving the pulling power of steam locomotives.

I should also point out that I do not use set track but use code 83 number 6 switches and flex track on the visible portions of the railway and code 100 number six switches  and flex track in the staging tracks.  My minimum radius is 30 inches and that's in the staging yards.  I also take great care when laying track and do not tolerate derailments.  If anything derails, the cause of the derailment is investigated and the problem is fixed.  Flex track is much better than set track when it comes to smoother running.  On my previous GER I hand laid all my track and switches and again had zero problems with running without springs.

Springs.  I experimented with the removal of springs before I went ahead and removed them as a matter of course.  I kept adding cars to a steam locomotive until when it began to move, the driving wheels slipped.  I then removed the spring(s) from the truck(s) and coupled up to the same cars and the locomotive then moved them, this time without wheel spin.

If you are doubtful whether removing the spring(s) improves traction then try the same experiment yourself.  What have you got to lose?  You can always re-install the spring(s) if you are not satisfied.

Removing the springs will improve traction though basic physics.  Newton's Third Law.  i.e.  For every action (the spring pushing down) there is an equal and opposite reaction (The spring pushing up with the same force it's pushing down).  Therefore, however slight it may be, the spring is removing weight from the drivers.  Of course, one could ask the question, "If the pressure on the spring is that slight, then what good does it do by pressing down?"   My theory on springs is they are added by the manufacturers to assist in keeping the trucks on poorly laid set track used by beginners to the hobby.

In the odd case that a truck doesn't behave itself when the spring is removed, then I simply add some weight to the top of the truck in place of the spring.  I use a few lead shots glue to the top of the truck and painted black, which makes them disappear.

Anyway, give removing the spring(s) a try, you've nothing to lose and extra pulling power to gain.

Cheers

Roger.

Hi Roger;
I recall some years behind us that I did just that-with an Athearn Pacific that was giving my some very bad boogie-woogie; I removed the spring from the pony  wheels, and lo and behold-it did not improve anything.   I looked further into the who and why, and-TO MY BIG SURPRISE-it turned out to be trackwork.  Armed with this revelation, I went forth with said locomotive with spring re-installed, and came up with the sad conclusion that I was a lousy trackman, and some serious work was needed.  I then decided to go great guns and re-do my trackwork-on the newest endeavor.  So far, so good, springety pony and all.

Moral; if one man calls you a lousy tracklayer, pay no attention; but...if YOU call you a lousy trackman, well...
Rich C.

Quote from: electrical whiz kid on February 23, 2014, 12:07:47 PM
Hi Roger;
I recall some years behind us that I did just that-with an Athearn Pacific that was giving my some very bad boogie-woogie; I removed the spring from the pony  wheels, and lo and behold-it did not improve anything.   I looked further into the who and why, and-TO MY BIG SURPRISE-it turned out to be trackwork.  Armed with this revelation, I went forth with said locomotive with spring re-installed, and came up with the sad conclusion that I was a lousy trackman, and some serious work was needed.  I then decided to go great guns and re-do my trackwork-on the newest endeavor.  So far, so good, springety pony and all.

Moral; if one man calls you a lousy tracklayer, pay no attention; but...if YOU call you a lousy trackman, well...
Rich C.

Very good, Rich C.

Once in a great while I see someone admit this and for sometime they thought they had good track work. It does not take much to cause bad track work, not much at all in the scales we work at.
Very good troubleshooting.

Rich

Quote from: electrical whiz kid on February 23, 2014, 12:07:47 PM
Hi Roger;
I recall some years behind us that I did just that-with an Athearn Pacific that was giving my some very bad boogie-woogie; I removed the spring from the pony  wheels, and lo and behold-it did not improve anything.   I looked further into the who and why, and-TO MY BIG SURPRISE-it turned out to be trackwork.  Armed with this revelation, I went forth with said locomotive with spring re-installed, and came up with the sad conclusion that I was a lousy trackman, and some serious work was needed.  I then decided to go great guns and re-do my trackwork-on the newest endeavor.  So far, so good, springety pony and all.

Moral; if one man calls you a lousy tracklayer, pay no attention; but...if YOU call you a lousy trackman, well...
Rich C.

Rich.

I have two of the Athearn 4-6-2s and two of their 2-8-2s, the original Genesis locomotives that they've now distanced themselves from.

The main problems with both of them were, first and foremost, there were terribly out of balance when it came to weight distribution.  I forget now as it was ten or more years ago but they were either cab or nose heavy.  I added weight to both of them.  I gave them armour plated cab roofs, filled the steam chest and cylinders, sandbox and steam dome with lead shot.  In fact, I crammed lead shot in every nook and cranny.  It helps that one of the standard features of all GER steam is a lead filled air cylinder on the pilot deck.  I installed the weight so that the engines would balance on the centre driver of the 4-6-2 and between the two centre drivers on the 2-8-2.  I also, as is my practice, removed the springs from the trucks.  All four engines had way increased traction and no longer derailed.

The second and more difficult to solve problem to solve is their split gear syndrome.  The main gear on the driving axle has a tendency to split.  You could buy a brand new engine and the driving gear would be split, even as it sat in the box on the store shelf.   The solution for me was to thoroughly clean all grease from the gear and axle and very carefully apply gap filling AC glue to the one split gear I had and to the three gears that were not split.  Last time I ran these engines, about three years ago, they were still all fine.  As they are not DCC engines (yet) they've been sitting in storage so I can't speak for them now.

And, as I've said before, I do not tolerate derailments. 

Cheers

Roger.