Length of locomotive on turntable.

[Doneldon]

Below is a link to a photo of Handley's roundhouse and engine service tracks just after the roundhouse  was demolished. There is no sign of any road near the pit and the closest public road can just be made out through the trees on the right hand side in the photo link below.  As for "How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night......"  Well, there is no road and as you can tell from the photos, the pit area was reasonably well lit with at least four street light fixtures mounted on poles around the pit, for railroader safety I expect.


http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg

J3a and Roger-

I think the issue is that you two are talking about two different turntables, one at Allegany and the other at Handley. The presence of lights and the absence of a road at Handley doesn't mean there were lights at Allegany and no nearby road. I know it's easy to get mixed up with all of the we references but it seems it would make sense not to argue when you are talking about two different locations. Roger, I urge you again not to be so aggressive and quick to argue, especially when you aren't detail oriented. Your defensiveness isn't needed. J3a, thanks for the great turntable shots, including the ones with the obstructions, a fence and a cliff! That would sure slow down a turning locomotive.

                                                                                                                                       -- D

[rogertra]

Below is a link to a photo of Handley's roundhouse and engine service tracks just after the roundhouse  was demolished. There is no sign of any road near the pit and the closest public road can just be made out through the trees on the right hand side in the photo link below.  As for "How would you like to be driving down that road, especially at night......"  Well, there is no road and as you can tell from the photos, the pit area was reasonably well lit with at least four street light fixtures mounted on poles around the pit, for railroader safety I expect.


http://www.gottrains.com/chessie/handley/yard7ds.jpg

J3a and Roger-

I think the issue is that you two are talking about two different turntables, one at Allegany and the other at Handley. The presence of lights and the absence of a road at Handley doesn't mean there were lights at Allegany and no nearby road. I know it's easy to get mixed up with all of the we references but it seems it would make sense not to argue when you are talking about two different locations. Roger, I urge you again not to be so aggressive and quick to argue, especially when you aren't detail oriented. Your defensiveness isn't needed. J3a, thanks for the great turntable shots, including the ones with the obstructions, a fence and a cliff! That would sure slow down a turning locomotive.                                                                                                                               -- D

Donald.

It's J3a or the C&OHS that has made the error.  He claimed his original photos were of Handley and I quote "Photos illustrating overhang on turntables, all courtesy of the Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society:  Handley, W.Va.:"  If the photos he posted were not of Handley, then I'm not responsible, am I?

He then went on to describe a "road" close to the tracks and how he wouldn't like to drive that in the dark etc., etc..  He posted photos of locomotives on the turntable at "Handley" to prove his point.

I then posted a photo of Handley showing there was NO road, just a railroad access pathway to the roundhouse tracks

I have ONLY been discussing Handley.  Period!  I have posted photos of Handley to make my point.  If J3a posted photos of some other location then the fault lays with him or the C&OHS, not me.  I've not being defensive, that's your (typical) interpretation of my remarks.  I've been pointing out facts and details in the photos.  Yes, DETAILS based on Handley, those things you claim I'm not oriented to.  LOL.

Details are what is important and I've been pointing them out, based on Handley.

If it turns out some of the photos posted by J3a are of Allegany then the fault lays elsewhere, not with me.  I have no idea what Allegany looks like.

I'm discussing Handley.  Can you understand that?  It's called a "detail".

[J3a-614]

That's OK, Roger just missed this paragraph following the Handley shot:

"This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford museum; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Alleghany, Va.:"

Happens all the time when we get in a hurry; another reason to take the Atlas advice on some of their structure kits, and "Take your time to get your money's worth."

Anyway, the point was to show that some locomotives would overhang turntables, sometimes by a considerable amount.  It might be argued that locomotives were beginning to hit practical limits on length, at least for single-ended units like most steam engines, and this would be another nail in steam's coffin.

I'll also add to Roger's comments about some turntables being "balanced," and that you had to have the locomotive off-center in some cases to get the weight to balance out.  This was eliminated with either continuous or hinged turntables.  The former was a large, rigid bridge that was supported by the center pivot and both bogies, but had a potential problem in that pit rail vertical alignment was critical to prevent strains in the table and on the "tractors" (turning motors).  This was resolved with the "sectional" or "hinged" turntable, which was in two sections joined over the center bearing, in principle much like a two-unit articulated railroad car, but with the allowed movement being vertical instead of horizontal.  This allowed for irregularities in the pit rail, and prevented the strain that could occur on a continuous bridge if there were some settling anywhere in the support system.  It also had the advantage in that with two shorter spans instead of one long one, the girders and the pit to clear them could be shallower, and thus less expensive to build.

One of the interesting things in watching a locomotive go onto a balanced table would be to watch the approach end drop on its bogie as the locomotive rolled on--and watch the other end jump into the air by the same amount, about an inch or two on the East Broad Top's table at Orbisonia!  This would of course settle out as the locomotive was balanced on the table.

P.S.:  I've always like Roger's Great Eastern, you don't see Canadian lines done too much here!

[rogertra]

That's OK, Roger just missed this paragraph following the Handley shot:

"This photo is notable is that this engine, 1601, is now on display at the Henry Ford museum; location in this shot and the others that follow is at Alleghany, Va.:"

Happens all the time when we get in a hurry; another reason to take the Atlas advice on some of their structure kits, and "Take your time to get your money's worth."

P.S.:  I've always like Roger's Great Eastern, you don't see Canadian lines done too much here!

J3A.  Thanks for pointing that out.  As you can tell, I didn't notice that last bit.  :-(

And yes, we both agree that engines could and did overhang the end of turntables by quite a few feet in some cases.  Some railways in the UK had two "U" shaped pieces of steel that they'd put over the tender end of the turntable so that engines with a wheel base too long for the turntable bridge would run their tender wheels up onto the "U" shaped extentions.  Of course, you can only do that with a UK six wheeled tender, it won't work for a North American tender with trucks. 

Thanks for the additional comments on balanced and sectional turntables.  I didn't go into the details but your comments cover those nicely.

However, this discussion has made me more aware of Handley, a place I'd never heard of.  Seems to have been quite the hot spot in the steam and early diesel days.  Helper service over a 50 mile(?) grade?  Lots of traffic, an ideal place to model I'd think.  I checked it out on Google Earth this afternoon and it's now just a wide place on the road map.  No railroad yards, nothing, just what appears to be the remains of the concrete coaling tower.  Oh how the mighty have fallen.

Thanks for the note on the GER.  Sadly, it's been in the dumpster for three years now but a new and hopefully better Great Eastern is slowly rising in my basement.

Best wishes.

[Doneldon]

It's J3a or the C&OHS that has made the error.

I'm discussing Handley.  Can you understand that?  It's called a "detail".

Roger-

You have great information but your defensiveness when none is needed and your utter inability to acknowledge a fault are phenomenal. As for details, Roger, I'm afraid it is you who is really sloppy and careless. Your slipshod presentation and fear of making an error detract greatly from your credibility. Acknowledge the errors, be civil, don't respond to the posts which make you want to act like a bully and pay attention to detail instead of sloughing it off like getting things right isn't really desirable and you'll find your credibility soaring. Give it a try.

Beyond this, I'm giving up on you. Take all of the cheap shots and consistent inaccuracies you want to misspell or misquote. I won't engage with you further. I can recognize a hopeless and helpless to do anything about it case when I see one.
                       -- Doneldon

[rogertra]

It's J3a or the C&OHS that has made the error.

I'm discussing Handley.  Can you understand that?  It's called a "detail".

Roger-

You have great information but your defensiveness when none is needed and your utter inability to acknowledge a fault are phenomenal. As for details, Roger, I'm afraid it is you who is really sloppy and careless. Your slipshod presentation and fear of making an error detract greatly from your credibility. Acknowledge the errors, be civil, don't respond to the posts which make you want to act like a bully and pay attention to detail instead of sloughing it off like getting things right isn't really desirable and you'll find your credibility soaring. Give it a try.

Beyond this, I'm giving up on you. Take all of the cheap shots and consistent inaccuracies you want to misspell or misquote. I won't engage with you further. I can recognize a hopeless and helpless to do anything about it case when I see one.
                       -- Doneldon

Donald.

Quit trying to be the absolute font of knowledge on this forum.  You are not.

You have tried several times, unsuccessfully, to discredit my knowledge.  You were completely wrong when it came to the eccentric rod and it's use in steam.  You were wrong in your description of cab forward engines, to name the two most recent.  I think this all started in the P-51 Vs Spitfire debate.

Donald, have recently started to attack my posts.  It's you who post the cheap shots, as you have done above.  You find fault in every post I make.

I have no idea what I did to you to cause this obvious animosity you exhibit towards me so please stick to your promise of " I won't engage with you further."  It will be a blessing to all of us.

I wish you well.

[jbrock27]

Nah, it started before that, at least as early as this past March, when you told him not to mess with any of the wiring in his house.  You told him he didn't make any sense and that he should be sure to call an electrician.
This was in the "Braided vs Solid wire for layouts thread".

I love both fighters, but still prefer the Cadillac of the Sky!

[WoundedBear]

Nah, it started before that, at least as early as this past March, when you told him not to mess with any of the wiring in his house.  You told him he didn't make any sense and that he should be sure to call an electrician.
This was in the "Braided vs Solid wire for layouts thread".

LMAO......I remember that thread and the sticky "c" key. Funny how that key seemed to work before and after that post.

Doneldon, it's true what people are saying. You seem to feel that a question is just not fully answered until you chime in. Doesn't really matter the topic, you are an expert at it somehow. Then you get upset when someone tries to correct you. It wouldn't be bad if you sounded like you had some real expertise, but you constantly come off sounding like a guy that's memorized every issue of Model Railroader and it's stale advice and warnings.

All one has to do is read back through your 200 plus pages of previous postings and see what I mean.

As for postings....funny....you got 200 or more pages of previous posts....

Roger has less than half of you at 94 pages........I have half of that at 45......and we all joined here around the same time.

More quality, less quantity, maybe Don. See if that helps. Let's see some pics of your modeling as well, please. I don't recall ever seeing any of your work. Roger, Jonathan, B&OFan, Jward, JerryHO, myself, we all show our work. I'd love to see what you are doing.

Sid

[Pacific Northern]

Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif

Is that at Field BC?

No, it is Revelstoke, Hint is the brace over the turntable, Field did not have one.

[Doneldon]

LMAO......I remember that thread and the sticky "c" key. Funny how that key seemed to work before and after that post.Sid

Sid-

Yes, the sticky "c" key. Well. it did stick for a while and then it cleared itself up. My granddaughter pounded on my keyboard, messing up both my "b" and "c" keys. I thought I would need to replace my keyboard but the "c" seemed to get back into alignment. The "b" is still problematic but I can't see replacing an expensive keyboard for one comparatively uncommon sticking letter. So I make an effort to hit the "b" a little harder and I use spell check which catches most errors unless the erroneous word is itself a real word.

Your intimation that I wasn't truthful about the "c" key would have been offensive were it not so patently obvious to (almost) everyone that nobody would have a reason to make up something so trivial.
                                                                                                                                 -- D

[Jerrys HO]

This goes to all ...  
jbrock27 , wounded bear, doneldon and other's including myself.
I recently deleted my account (if you did not notice). Since then I have come to the conclusion, I am here to try and help other's with what I have learned  from you guy's, so I reopened my account.
I have noticed a lot of bickering, some which I will say I agree with (like Sid's last post).
We have to all realize we are here to help other's and learn from other's as well.
If you don't agree with a post, either let's not reply or do it through a PM. This does not look good to newcomer's with all this going on. We do not want the reputation that I have heard about of another forum.
We all have an opinion and like a certain part of our anatomy, we all have one.
If you are not happy with this comment, send me a PM.
Your all great modeler's from what I have seen. I would hate to see anyone do what I was thinking. (am I right Sid ? it's not a health issue and I never said that)

Jerry

[WoundedBear]

Bang on the money Jerry.

Sounds like a plan to me.

Sid

[Jerrys HO]

Thanks Sid
It means a lot more than you know hearing you agree.
Now let's hope everyone can get on board.

Jerry

[jbrock27]

Jerry, that is very kind of you to include me in as a great modeler, but I am not.  Not like my boy, the Bear.  I am pretty much a hack.  I have some mechanical skill to get stuff running, but can't take credit as a great modeler.  At least not since I built my last model plane, or tank, B-25, P-51 or Sherman, whenever that was. 
But I like to learn stuff, especially how stuff works and for the entertainment value, sometimes this place can't be beat .   
I think your suggestion is an admirable one and I will do my best to follow the plan.  Let's see how it all plays out going forward.

[rogertra]

Here is one of my favourite pictures, the largest of the CPR steamers on a turntable

http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/cgi-bin/www2i/.visual/img_med/dir_153/f_06527.gif

Is that at Field BC?

No, it is Revelstoke, Hint is the brace over the turntable, Field did not have one.

Other end of the subdivision I believe?   Does that count as "close enough" ?