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Author Topic: Large diesels. Bigger vs  (Read 23689 times)
Inder


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« on: September 07, 2007, 05:39:44 PM »

Hello guys,

Me again.  Trying to learn about contemporary diesel locomotives.

First of all, Is Alco out of business?  I thought I read that somewhere.

And which of these engines is bigger as in more powerful or even more modern.

EMD SD70M
EMD SD70MAC
EMD SD80MAC
EMD SD90MAC

It is pretty obvious that the SD70 Precedes the SD90 and they must be some changes but were these huge changes or just aesthetics.
Maybe a bigger generator?
And how well do they compare to the General Electric locos?

GE AC4400CW
GE C30-7
GE C44-9W
GE P42
GE U30C

Was the AC4400 the answer to the SD70 and therefore the SD90 the answer the GE's AC4400?

Any help will be great.  There's not much in wiki about all of these locos.
thanks.
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Stephen D. Richards

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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 06:52:30 PM »

Inder,  check out the following sites;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM-EMD_locomotives
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GE_locomotives

Stephen
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scottychaos


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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 08:39:19 PM »

Inder,
for your GE list, you have a span of many decades..
Here are rough dates and models, and not all models shown,
but here is a stab at it:

EMD
1940's - F-units, E-units, early SW switchers.
1950's - F's and E's continued, GP7, GP9, SD7, SD9,  SW switchers.
1960's - GP30, GP35, SD40, SD45
1970's - SD40-2, GP38-2, GP40-2
1980's - SD50, SD60, SD70, GP50, GP60
1990's - SD70, SD80, SD90, widecabs. no more GP's or SW's.
2000's - SD70, SD90 (and variants) 6-axle only, all widecabs.

Currently EMD is only offering the SD70M-2 and the SD70ACe.

in EMD parlance, a GP is always 4-axle and a SD is always 6-axle.

GE
1920's-1960's - diesel switchers only.
1960's - first U-boat, U25B
1970's - U-boats. 4 and 6 axle varients, (U30B, U33C, etc.)
1980's - dash-7 series
1990's - dash 8 and dash 9 series- last of the 4-axle units.
2000's - dash 9 widecabs and Evolution series. 6-axle only.

In GE parlance, "B" is 4-axle and "C" is 6-axle.
U30B = 4-axle U-boat
U30C = 6=axle U-boat
B23-7 = 4 axle dash-7
C39-8 = 6 axle dash-8

Alco
1940's - Alco PA and Alco FA , RS2, RS3, and switchers
1950's - PA and FA continue, RS11, RS32, RS36
1960's - first of the Century series, C420, C424, C628, C630 etc
1969 - Alco goes out of business in 1969, peaks with the C636.

C420, C424 = 4-axle
C628, C630 = 6-axle.

Fairbanks Morse and Baldwin also make diesels in the 1940's and 1950's.

yes, I know there are a LOT of models missing!
I made no attempt to list them all! Wink
so you dont need to tell me which are missing.  Wink
I meant this as just a rough guide..

GE AC4400CW - 1990's-2000's
GE C30-7 - 1980's
GE C44-9W - 1990's
GE P42 - 1990's-2000's
GE U30C - 1970's

the "latest and greatest" of the GE's is the Evolution series,
such as the ES44AC ("ES" for "Evolution Series")
dash-9's are still in production as well..I think.

Scot
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 08:45:43 PM by scottychaos » Logged

r.cprmier

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 09:08:54 PM »

Alco has been out of business since the mid-sixties; the "Century" type locomotives were probably their last major effort.

As far as history goes, American Locomotive Company  has a rather robust career as what was probably the most predominant steam locomotive manufacturer in this country, and probably the world.

Just before the outbreak of WWll, they had entered diesel production with the RS-1 and DL-109 as prime engines.After the outbreak of the war, Alco's resources were requisitioned  by the government to produce tanks, and marine armament, such as the main longrifles used aboard cruisers, etc; as well as other military hardware; and diesel development was shelved, unlike General Motors, who was allowed to produce diesels, ostensibly for the war effort.

After the war, Alco got back into production, but was still dragged by the steam production, as well as the foot-dragging by some of the upper echelon, who wanted to pursue steam production.  THis inner squabbling, as well as EMD's (GM) stepped up production of the "F" series diesels-and the very large egg that was laid with the disastrous early power plants, led to the company's slow demise; their "RS", FA and "PA" series units pretty much turning into their mainstay of revenue.

THe ramping up of GE forced this once fabulous "can do no wrong" company in a weak third place in sales.  By the end of the fifties, they were all but done; but some die hard;  The "century" series was a pretty good engine and was  a promising workhorse; alas, too little too late. They just couldn';t keep up with the competition's technology.  By 1968, they were finished; and Schenectedy, New York, finally lost it's home of the "Glamour Girl".

Rich 
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Rich

NEW YORK NEW HAVEN & HARTFORD RR. CO.
-GONE, BUT NOT FORGOTTEN!
Inder


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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2007, 11:22:04 AM »

Scottychaos,

Thank you for your list.  I printed it and I will hang it up on my wall.
So far I have purchased the following:
GE AC4400CW
GE C44-9W qty-2
8-40 CW
a 4 axle CW
GP-50
SD-45
SD-90
Alco C628 qty - 2


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scottychaos


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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2007, 11:30:53 AM »

Scottychaos,

Thank you for your list.  I printed it and I will hang it up on my wall.
So far I have purchased the following:
GE AC4400CW
GE C44-9W qty-2
8-40 CW
a 4 axle CW
GP-50
SD-45
SD-90
Alco C628 qty - 2




no problem!  Grin

wow, thats quite a selection of diesels!  Grin
are you modeling a particular road name or era?
all those locos can prototypically operate together except for the C628..
there hasnt been an operating C628 in the USA since about 1980..
and the SD45 is iffy..there are still a few floating around, but not many.
Susquehanna is still running a few in the East.
and Montana Rail Link is still running a few out west..
but thats about it..
a few leaser locos in SD45 carbodys can be found on Class-1's too.

of course, with a model railroad, there is no law that says what you run has to be prototypical!  Grin
thats the beauty of it...run whatever you like!
if you WANT to be prototypical, thats different of course..

Scot
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Inder


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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2007, 01:27:06 PM »

Yeah I want to model Union Pacific because that's what I see a lot of in my area (Southern California)
All of the locomotives I have are Union Pacific with the exception of Atlas Alcos, I have two.

The Alco C628 is for NdeM railroad.
That's one of the railroads in Mexico and that is why they don't mix with the rest of the locos.
I grew up in Mexico and so I want to model that railroad as well.  I don't know if it's because those were the first locomotives I saw when I was a kid but I really like the Black (they say it's dark green - I don't see that)  red and yellow combination.  I believe a Canadian railroad uses the same scheme except they have a white stripe between the red and the black (dark green?)
They also used GE U36C's and apparently they are also called U-boats? 
Do you know why that is?  I mean they don't look like a submarine to me.  I think it's because they're really long.  Well anyway, I want to see if I can find some in N scale and then undertake the task of repainting them with the NdeM scheme.  I bought some decals on Ebay for $5.00 which I think is a killer deal. 

So yeah it should make sense.  My layout will be part of Mexico and Part of western U.S.
By the way I am just beginning so I don't have a layout yet.

What railroads do you model?
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SteamGene

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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2007, 02:10:28 PM »

I THINK they are called U-Boats because of the designation "U." 
Gene
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Chief Brass Hat
Virginia Tidewater and Piedmont Railroad
"Only coal fired steam locomotives"
scottychaos


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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2007, 02:29:59 PM »

The "U" stands for "Universal Series"..
"U-boat" is a railfan nickname, not an official GE term.
unrelated to German submarines!  Wink
(except the GE "U-boats" probably were given that particular nickname because that nickname already existed, from the WWII submarines..other than that connection, the name itself, I dont think there was any other connection between the GE locos and the German submarines, not in looks or anything like that.."U-boat" was just a nickname that caught on because the locos had the "U")

they were GE's first road diesels, starting with the U25B of 1960.

any loco with a "U" in it can be termed a "U-boat"
U25B
U30B
U36C
U33C
U50C
etc..(and several more..)

U28B, a classic U-boat. (1970's)
http://crcyc.railfan.net/locos/ge/u23/lv511cf.jpg


the U-boats evolved into the Dash-7 series, which still looked mostly like U-boats externally..same short nose, same cab, but with continiously evolving internals of course.

C30-7 (1980's)
http://www.jefflubchanskycpa.com/RMGX5023-OI-JUNE15-00DIGI2.jpg

the dash-7's evolved into the dash-8's, and had a new cab and nose design:

C40-8 (late 80's)
http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib006/UP9188R.JPG
a few dash-8's were the first GE units to have widecabs..first widecabs appeared in the late 1980's.

The dash-8 evolved into the dash-9,
some early dash-9's had the "spartan cab" as seen on the Dash 8 above, but most came with the new widecabs.
Widecabs became universal during the 1990's.

C44-9W (1990's - 2,000's)
http://www.aat-net.de/chicago/002-054.jpg

The C44-9 is probably the most common and sucessful loco of the past 15 years..they are EVERYWHERE!  Grin

then..the Dash-9 has evolved into the Evolution Series..GE's latest and greatest.

ES44AC (2,000's)
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=200740&nseq=13

Scot







« Last Edit: September 10, 2007, 03:01:25 PM by scottychaos » Logged

scottychaos


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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2007, 02:41:18 PM »


The Alco C628 is for NdeM railroad.
That's one of the railroads in Mexico and that is why they don't mix with the rest of the locos.
I grew up in Mexico and so I want to model that railroad as well.  I don't know if it's because those were the first locomotives I saw when I was a kid but I really like the Black (they say it's dark green - I don't see that)  red and yellow combination.  I believe a Canadian railroad uses the same scheme except they have a white stripe between the red and the black (dark green?)



Lots of old U-boats and Alcos went to Mexico in the 1970's..
(and the Mexican railroads bought a lot of them new too.)
I believe the only surviving Alco C628 from an American road is an ex-Delaware & Hudson C628 in Mexico..

All four of the famous D&H Alco PA's also went to Mexico..
two have come back to the US, and two are in museums in Mexico:

http://www.mexlist.com/photo/benson/dh19.htm

Quote
What railroads do you model?

I model the Lehigh Valley in G scale, and Maine 2-footers in On2 scale.
my pages are here:

http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/

Your future model railroad sounds cool!
combination of US and Mexican roads..I like!

Scot
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SteamGene

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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2007, 03:56:10 PM »

The German U-boats got their name in the same way.  In German, "submarine" is "Unterseeboot".  Either they shortened the word to "U-boot" and we changed it to "U-boat," or we did it by ourselves.  Quite likely the Germans did it themselves as they are notorious for having long nouns with short adaptations:
"flak" - "Fleugabwerkannon"
"Stuka"  "Sturtzkampffleugzeug"
"Nazi" "Nationalsocialistiche Deutscherarbeiterpartei"  (May only be one word. 
The German word for "conductor" (required RR information  Grin) translates into "the man in the blue uniform with brass buttons who collects tickets"
Gene
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Chief Brass Hat
Virginia Tidewater and Piedmont Railroad
"Only coal fired steam locomotives"
Inder


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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2007, 01:13:36 AM »

Wow Scottychaos I was blown away.
A tour de force!

There is no chaos in your world.  It's all in order so why the name LOL.

Without a doubt my favorite part of your website is your story on the model of Lehigh Valley railroad SW1 #112
I admire your perseverance on the research.  The planning  before the execution was involved.  I just really enjoyed the whole thing.  By the end of it all I actually felt attached to old #112 and it bothered to see her broken window.

I truly admire your work and the work of your dad, the railroad crew are fantastic.

I have one question though, in the beginning, after you introduce Annie and we start seeing some bridges.  In the construction page #3 we see Annie head to head with a 4-6-0 ( i can't see if there's trailing trucks) on the red bridge.  What happened to that train?  I don't see it again in the story.
You mention that the stonehedge railroad crew put together another engine from two bad ones but the one I'm referring to looked pristine.

Anyway well you leave me with the thought of putting a garden railroad on my mom's house.  I will run the thought by her see what she thinks...



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scottychaos


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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2007, 09:31:54 AM »

Wow Scottychaos I was blown away.
A tour de force!

There is no chaos in your world.  It's all in order so why the name LOL.

Without a doubt my favorite part of your website is your story on the model of Lehigh Valley railroad SW1 #112
I admire your perseverance on the research.  The planning  before the execution was involved.  I just really enjoyed the whole thing.  By the end of it all I actually felt attached to old #112 and it bothered to see her broken window.

I truly admire your work and the work of your dad, the railroad crew are fantastic.

I have one question though, in the beginning, after you introduce Annie and we start seeing some bridges.  In the construction page #3 we see Annie head to head with a 4-6-0 ( i can't see if there's trailing trucks) on the red bridge.  What happened to that train?  I don't see it again in the story.
You mention that the stonehedge railroad crew put together another engine from two bad ones but the one I'm referring to looked pristine.

Anyway well you leave me with the thought of putting a garden railroad on my mom's house.  I will run the thought by her see what she thinks...





thanks Inder!  Grin
Glad you have enjoyed my little webpages!

and thanks for bringing my attention to the page for LV 112..
I see there are now a lot of dead photo links..
imageshack sucks!  Angry
dont ever use them..
the photos you upload to them arent supposed to disappear, but they do..after 6-months to a year the photos just vanish.
I will try to fix that page and re-upload the photos to photobucket.

I do have my own hosting space on www.mylargescale.com, but I dont keep everything there..

Quote
have one question though, in the beginning, after you introduce Annie and we start seeing some bridges.  In the construction page #3 we see Annie head to head with a 4-6-0 ( i can't see if there's trailing trucks) on the red bridge.  What happened to that train?  I don't see it again in the story.



We dont see that train again because that is MY train! Wink
and it was just visiting my Dad's railroad that one particular day!  Grin

And actually..ALL the scenes of that garden railroad no longer exist!  Shocked
the railroad was totally dismantled and moved to the other side of the driveway, and rebuilt in a much smaller version of the railroad.
because the original railroad was totally located under pine trees..
and the constant dropping of pine needles was a cleaning nightmare!
my Dad runs battery power, so the rails never needed to be cleaned, but still the pine needles were just too much..
so the railroad was dismantled and moved!
I will update my Dad's page with current photos eventually..

thanks,
Scot
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Woody Elmore

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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2007, 11:18:46 AM »

N de M used a very dark green for a while - usually referred to as "pullman green" if the paint got a layer of grime on it, it looked black. CN used a similar green with yellow. SAL also used a pullman green with pale lemon yellow striping. There are lots of others, I'm sure.

The Pennsylvania used a very dark green called "Brunswick green" on its locomotives. Most of the time it looked black. I once saw a clean GG-1 in the woodside, NY yard late in the afternoon. In the afternoon sun it was obvious that the paint had a green caste to it.
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Inder


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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2007, 11:32:04 AM »

Well I'll be darn.
I grew up really close to the train station in Mexico.  As far back as I could remember I would walk to the train station to watch the train up close and I must have seen hundreds of Alco 628s (well I don't know that they owned hundreds) as well as the U-boats but I don't remember ever seeing a hint of green on those diesels not even from the glare.  Which means I'm probably slightly color blind or something.

Well even my Atlas 628 looks flat black to me.  It must be one hell of a deep green.  I will take it outside in the sun light because now I'm curious whether I can see some green hues on it.
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