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Author Topic: Power Compatibility  (Read 8074 times)
CGLowry

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« on: March 30, 2011, 01:36:43 PM »

I would like to a purchase Williams Scale Hudson (40201).  I run both TMCC and Conventional Lionel locomotives depending upon my mood.  My layout is powered by a Lionel Powerhouse 180 Watt Power Supply (6-22983) with the voltage being regulated by a Lionel Powermaster 6-24120.  The Powermaster allows you to either apply full voltage to the track, or vary it using a CAB 1 Remote.

I would like to know if this power setup will work without any issues with the Williams locomotive.

Thank you in advance for any advice you may have.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 01:41:40 PM by CGLowry » Logged
phillyreading

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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 03:34:06 PM »

You must start at zero voltage when using a Williams engine or it can become like a run-away rocket sled on rails.
TMCC & DCS, command control both, put full voltage to the track and give commands to the engines. Make sure that the TMCC feature is completely turned off!! Then use your Williams engine.

A TPC 300 should work well with a Williams engine. Not sure about the CAB 1, but you would have to start near zero volts with any voltage control unit.

Remember the Williams engines are all conventional, unless you add something to make command control useable.

Lee F.
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Len

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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 07:46:02 PM »

The short answer to your question is yes. As long as the Power Master is set for "conventional", your Williams locos will operate exactly the same way as your Lionel conventional locos.

If you forget and leave the switch in "command", as soon as you hit the boost button your conventional locos will take off like a rocket when they get hit with 18V.

But I suspect you already know that, since you're already switching between TMCC an conventional modes.

Len
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If at first you don't succeed, throw it in the spare parts box.
DominicMazoch

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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 11:14:53 AM »

I run TMCC in Conv.  If you re read about the Cab-1, you can customized the controls on the Cab-1 to each locomotive.
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SantaFe158

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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 12:16:50 PM »

I have the older (pre-bachmann) Williams 773 "Scale" hudson and ran it off of the TMCC 180W brick and powermaster.  Worked fine but I still upgraded it to TMCC with cruise control from ERR (Lionel) and now I can run it extremely slowly and can also just set it to a speed and it will stay at that speed.
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phillyreading

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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 10:49:53 AM »

I have been using the Z-1000 by MTH with my Williams engines, SD-45's, GP-9's, F-7's, and have no problems with slow start speed. Have to be careful to start slowly with the throttle or they will take off very fast.
Have used the Lionel post war ZW & KW and they take off rather fast with either transformer.

To install either TMCC or DCS in a Williams engine, in my opion, is a waste of money. But then, to each his own.

Lee F.
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SantaFe158

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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2011, 12:19:13 PM »

To install either TMCC or DCS in a Williams engine, in my opion, is a waste of money. But then, to each his own.

I never saw a point in it either, that's the whole point of Williams but after buying the 773 hudson I wasn't happy with the running characteristics of it.  By installing TMCC with Cruise control from ERR I can run it way slower and it will keep a constant speed.  For some Williams locomotives you'd be better off buying one already equipped from Lionel or MTH because of the price, but for under $400 I have a TMCC/Cruise equipped steam locomotive that looks and runs great.  Can't wait to take it to the next train show to run on the club layout.




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Joe Satnik


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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 05:33:53 PM »

Dear All,

Dropping voltage to the motor (but not to smoke and lights) using diode pairs:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,15415.0.html

Same theory, but using diode bridges connected (shorted) from (+) to (-) yielding two sets of diode pairs per package (less soldering, less heat-shrink tubing):

http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=413&categoryId=559

Daisy chain from ac (~) terminal to ac terminal to further reduce voltages:

  ~bridge with +/- short~---------~bridge with +/- short~-------- etc.  

Here's a diode bridge that's a bit overkill (RS 276-1181) but ok if you have the room:  

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062583

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik
« Last Edit: April 17, 2011, 09:17:28 PM by Joe Satnik » Logged

If your loco is too heavy to lift, you'd better be able to ride in, on or behind it.
Simbo1

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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2011, 12:38:15 AM »

Joe, I tried the diode pairs and I can see that one pair does not really have much effect.  I will need more pairs in series.  If I want to set up four Diode pairs, do I have to do four individual pairs? Or can I just have two sets of four diodes connected together in series and then set up in opposite directions and connected on each end?
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Joe Satnik


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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2011, 01:09:14 AM »

Dear Simbo1,

What you suggest will work, though I think the diode bridges (with the + and - shorted) are an easier and handier way to accomplish the same thing.

Hope this helps,

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik 
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If your loco is too heavy to lift, you'd better be able to ride in, on or behind it.
stubbsO

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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2011, 09:50:43 AM »

Why do all that work when you can just turn down the power at the transformer? I use a "Z" at 60% and it runs like it's series wired.
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Joe Satnik


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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2011, 01:29:10 PM »

Dear stubbsO,

The diodes or diode bridges (with + shorted to -) added in series with the DC can motors are used to reduce

the high starting voltages of the old conventional transformers. 

The Lionel "Z" transformer has a starting voltage of 6 volts.

The "ZW" has a starting voltage of 8 volts.

Big difference.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik   
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If your loco is too heavy to lift, you'd better be able to ride in, on or behind it.
rtraincollector

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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2011, 08:45:07 PM »

Okay first yes it will work fine with a power-master or a TPC-300
2nd I added tmcc from ERR to my PRR Trainmaster and it was well worth it to me I also rewired the motors so they were in series which also helped a lot. I have a lot better control of the engine with TMCC than I did before. I rewired the engine to series about a year before I added tmcc to it. now for resale value I don't think adding tmcc really helped it any but since i don't plan on selling it it was a good investment to me. I can still always run it in conventional mode also anytime I want.
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Simbo1

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2011, 12:17:26 AM »

Joe, can you explain the Diode Bridges?  I get the diode pairs, but it sounds like the Diode Bridges greatly simplify the process.  I'd like that.  I'm installing in a J class WBB loco (which has barely enough room for the pairs). 

Thanks. 

listenin' to the BNSF roll by...
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Joe Satnik


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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2011, 04:15:14 PM »

Simbo1,

Please read carefully through all the links I have provided above, then I'll answer any questions.

The bridges are cleverly wired to produce the same result as separate diodes, but with much less insulation (shrink tube) hassles.  

The first picture in the jcstudiosinc link above shows the (external) wiring diagram for the bridges.

Internal diagram of a diode bridge (with added externally wired + to - short):

(~)----->l------(+)
  l                     l
  l               t     l
 --           r       --
 /\        o          /\
  l      h              l
  l   s                 l
(-)----->l-------(~)

Remember that current flows only in the direction of the arrows.
In one direction, current flows into upper left (~) to (+), across the shorting wire to (-), then to lower right (~) and out.
In the other direction, current flows into lower right (~) to (+), across the shorting wire to (-), then to upper left (~) and out.

~ to short = 1 diode drop,

~ to ~ = 2 diode drops.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik  

Edit:  Add "Diode pairs or shorted diode bridges may be added to either or both motor wires."
« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 04:20:02 PM by Joe Satnik » Logged

If your loco is too heavy to lift, you'd better be able to ride in, on or behind it.
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